DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
Anyone know any organisations running NVDA training, please?
Edit: by PM if necessary ...
misread that as NKVD and did this face:
Just how militant are you prepared to be?
- Thread starter DotCommunist
- Start date
misread that as NKVD and did this face:
temper_tantrum
The beauty of the ride
likesfish
You can't park here sir
fine have your rave but don't piss all over other peoples rights to have a decent kip or look after thier livestock
Its a degree of tactics trashing the offices fine chucking shit off the roof that could have killed someone when the police are not battering you counter productive.
meinhoff style bollocks wank fantasys proved german state could crack down hard it did rolled over the wankers and carried on.
9 times out of 10 the state will win any violent confrontation until such time that the police/squaddies start switching sides.
which most of the time they won't.
Its a degree of tactics trashing the offices fine chucking shit off the roof that could have killed someone when the police are not battering you counter productive.
meinhoff style bollocks wank fantasys proved german state could crack down hard it did rolled over the wankers and carried on.
9 times out of 10 the state will win any violent confrontation until such time that the police/squaddies start switching sides.
which most of the time they won't.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
The problem being that spending/funding isn't the only route to manipulating politicians. Ideology serves that purpose too.
Perhaps we'd be better, if we're taking the democratic election route, seeking a cap on the powers that can be exercised in our name, with some kind of system of referenda for "big asks"?
And that party politics are particularly susceptible to infiltration.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Why is a party required at all?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Only if we let it.
The point is that we can be fairly sure the boss class will act that way. It's whether we're dumb enough to accept a new status quo that reflects the old, that's the real question.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
alas yes- did a double take. Could have been a worse misread though.
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
Seeds for Change are good.Anyone know any organisations running NVDA training, please?
Edit: by PM if necessary ...
friedaweed
Me and me girl named Jane
YUP 
can't wait for 9,999 then i can cross dress apparently 
can't wait for 9,999 then i can cross dress apparently ericjarvis
give a feck for the feckless
In the short term they aren't. In the longer term they are inevitable. The problem isn't political parties, it's political parties that are so desperate for cash to campaign with that they sell out to the highest bidder.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Or so desperate for power that they'll do so.
The Black Hand
Unclean
"Only those who are prepared to go too far can possibly know how far they can go".
for the leftists- how far will you take it? I know I hate violence and find conflict quite distressing- however I have in the past been party to it by allowing people to do vengeance on my part. It is fucking grubby and reeks of complicity.
I'd like to say 'first at the shovel' but I know that large scale stuff would sicken me- to the point that I would go that pacifists route of 'oh god, we are just as bad as them now'
And yet they have the monopoly on violence. Sometimes it is necessary to wrest by force or roll over and feed the ovens. So where is the tipping point? Spontaneous uprisings have the terrible lack of planning that often sees them defeated quickly despite popular support. And yet planning or considering violent actions also troubles me- the greater good. I hear that phrase and my
And yet, I know the histories of crushed peoples, Arawak casualties and so forth.
If they had fought on equal terms...
Where do we draw the line and say 'no further'?
How militant? How violent? Depends on the situation, I do not believe a national uprising can ever be achieved in this country but on a localised level can and has been done to varying degrees of success. I'm talking riots here, saw it in St Pauls in 1980 with my own eyes. On a another level it's my personal belief that violence can be a very effective tool in certain situations but one has to be careful that it is the most effective. I've opposed racism with mind and fist on different occasions, I'd prefer mind but if I'm in a situation where I am threatened, what's the point in non-violence?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Thank you for that, Mr. Sinclair!
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
The one that was not sired by hewitt is due to marry a very good looking woman who he definetly didn't visit in a helicopter. I'm feeling the cellar/automatic weapons vibe.
BigTom
Well-Known Member
yeah, sorry, should have included the attributation for that, not just put it in quotes. not sure why i didn't to be honest. I love that quote though, wish I could find the footage of sinclair saying it that was in the documentary about detroit music (can't remember the title of the doco either)
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
"A True Testimonial"?
editor
hiraethified
Still in your cosy armchair, pathetically ranting away as usual, then? It seems that politics is like football for you: something best enjoyed from afar. Very, very afar.
revol68
what, fucking what?
Yep, never left my armchair, unlike you whose ex girlfriend once had some trouble with the peelers.
I think pissing contests are pathetic but you're barking up the wrong tree here.
The Black Hand
Unclean
revol68
what, fucking what?
well for a start libcom happily kept the fitwatch stuff and many of them are involved in plenty of campaigns and struggles and the vast majority have incurred some form of legal sanction.
The Black Hand
Unclean
Libcom have computer shock!
Plenty of 'campaigns and struggles'? Putting a sticker up and impotently chatting. The road to hell is paved with good intentions and they never get beyond that - they just don't cut the mustard and never have.
'Legal sanction' - did the poor boys get a caution for draw? You'll have to do better than that... Just likle goody 2 shoes who so desperately want to do well, but are parasitic on the working class movement rather than authentic participants within it...
Plenty of 'campaigns and struggles'? Putting a sticker up and impotently chatting. The road to hell is paved with good intentions and they never get beyond that - they just don't cut the mustard and never have.
'Legal sanction' - did the poor boys get a caution for draw? You'll have to do better than that... Just likle goody 2 shoes who so desperately want to do well, but are parasitic on the working class movement rather than authentic participants within it...
Prince Rhyus
Spokesman of King Antonio
I'd separate "How militant?" from "how active?" from "how sympathetic?"
How militant? Not very - unless I really had got to the point where I and those around me had next to nothing to lose.
How active? Very - but the nature of that activity does not necessarily mean taking to the streets with a loud speaker shouting slogans.
How sympathetic? This is more a "what is the mood of society?" question regarding how it views the impact of the cuts, the rationale behind them and the nature of resistance from those either on the receiving end of them and/or those who, although may not be significantly impacted by them are prepared to stick their necks out for others.
On "militancy"
Most people would probably panic if they came face-to-face with a phalanx of riot cops for the first time. I certainly did and have no intention of repeating that experience.
In terms of how militant, I guess the attitudes of broad groups (who are against the cuts) can be identified as:
1) Those who are prepared for violent confrontation/smashing up stuff and have no inhibitions about doing so - and are maybe even actively seeking this out;
2) Those who don't particularly want violent confrontation but will stand up for themselves if attacked/happy to encourage those who fall into 1)
3) Those who would want to steer clear of violence, but are glad that other people are doing it while watching from a safe distance and hope that something positive will come from it - without risk to themselves
4) Those who would want to steer clear of violence, and are disappointed that things turned out violent (for whatever reason)
5) Those who want nothing to do with violence and believe that the entire anti-cuts movement is undermined by it (a la Telegraph Student Tottie - http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/i...ermined-a-perfectly-reasonable-student-cause/ ) but are prepared to leave it at that
6) Those who want nothing to do with violence and believe that the entire anti-cuts movement is undermined by it and are prepared to take active steps to bring perpetrators of violence before the courts.
On "being active"
As mentioned earlier, being active will manifest itself in different ways for different people - and I think it is essential that those at the vanguard taking part in street protests acknowledge that: There is a huge logistical and co-ordination effort that will require the talents and skills of those taking part to be "deployed" in a manner that makes best use of what each of us has to give while at the same time not compelling people to do stuff that is way outside of what people are comfortable with to the extent that it drives them away. Think of it like this:
- Some people will have a natural talent in public speaking
- Some people will have a natural talent for being a face in the local media
- Some people will have a natural talent for maintaining and running websites
- Some people will have a natural talent for organising the logistics for meetings
- Some people will have a natural talent for communicating with lots of people face-to-face
- Some people will have a natural talent for communicating with lots of people online/electronically via FB, Twitter etc
- Some people will have a natural talent for making imaginative and colourful banners and outfits
- Some people will have a natural talent for engaging with the mainstream political system, making use of things like Freedom of Information, lobbying elected politicians, writing to departments and councils through their MPs and Councillors
- Some people will have a natural talent for music/theatre and organising creative events
- Some people will have a natural talent for putting on such events
- Some people will have a natural talent managing the finances of any local group
- Some people will have a natural talent for writing up discussions and debates that take place in meetings
- Some people will have a natural talent for unpicking the arguments put forward by those pushing the cuts
- Some people will have a natural talent for investigative reporting
- Some people will have a natural talent for using the legal levers available to challenge central and local government on the decisions that they take. (e.g. Judicial reviews)
- Some people will have a natural talent for interrogating and analysing the documents and information put out by those delivering the cuts
- Some people will have a natural talent for getting lots of local organisations to get together, communicate and co-operate.
What I think is vital for all local groups is that they get a feel for who has what skills that they can contribute - and in particular what they need but are currently missing.
As mentioned on another thread, in Cambridge we're in the process of doing precisely that. The trades union/local based movement identified needing more energy, ideas and general "dynamism" within the local movement. The students based movement on education identified stronger links outside the university and a shortage of funding as issues. On the union/local side, we have links with the local community and we have access to funding through the various union branch committees. On the student side, they have the energy, ideas and the dynamism.
The next thing on my list is to try and arrange something that can bring the two groups together.
What the result is of bringing the two sides together I don't know - but for me that is what makes it all the more exciting. At the same time, I'm also of the view that most of the people there will be old enough to take responsibility for their own actions.
How militant? Not very - unless I really had got to the point where I and those around me had next to nothing to lose.
How active? Very - but the nature of that activity does not necessarily mean taking to the streets with a loud speaker shouting slogans.
How sympathetic? This is more a "what is the mood of society?" question regarding how it views the impact of the cuts, the rationale behind them and the nature of resistance from those either on the receiving end of them and/or those who, although may not be significantly impacted by them are prepared to stick their necks out for others.
On "militancy"
Most people would probably panic if they came face-to-face with a phalanx of riot cops for the first time. I certainly did and have no intention of repeating that experience.
In terms of how militant, I guess the attitudes of broad groups (who are against the cuts) can be identified as:
1) Those who are prepared for violent confrontation/smashing up stuff and have no inhibitions about doing so - and are maybe even actively seeking this out;
2) Those who don't particularly want violent confrontation but will stand up for themselves if attacked/happy to encourage those who fall into 1)
3) Those who would want to steer clear of violence, but are glad that other people are doing it while watching from a safe distance and hope that something positive will come from it - without risk to themselves
4) Those who would want to steer clear of violence, and are disappointed that things turned out violent (for whatever reason)
5) Those who want nothing to do with violence and believe that the entire anti-cuts movement is undermined by it (a la Telegraph Student Tottie - http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/i...ermined-a-perfectly-reasonable-student-cause/ ) but are prepared to leave it at that
6) Those who want nothing to do with violence and believe that the entire anti-cuts movement is undermined by it and are prepared to take active steps to bring perpetrators of violence before the courts.
On "being active"
As mentioned earlier, being active will manifest itself in different ways for different people - and I think it is essential that those at the vanguard taking part in street protests acknowledge that: There is a huge logistical and co-ordination effort that will require the talents and skills of those taking part to be "deployed" in a manner that makes best use of what each of us has to give while at the same time not compelling people to do stuff that is way outside of what people are comfortable with to the extent that it drives them away. Think of it like this:
- Some people will have a natural talent in public speaking
- Some people will have a natural talent for being a face in the local media
- Some people will have a natural talent for maintaining and running websites
- Some people will have a natural talent for organising the logistics for meetings
- Some people will have a natural talent for communicating with lots of people face-to-face
- Some people will have a natural talent for communicating with lots of people online/electronically via FB, Twitter etc
- Some people will have a natural talent for making imaginative and colourful banners and outfits
- Some people will have a natural talent for engaging with the mainstream political system, making use of things like Freedom of Information, lobbying elected politicians, writing to departments and councils through their MPs and Councillors
- Some people will have a natural talent for music/theatre and organising creative events
- Some people will have a natural talent for putting on such events
- Some people will have a natural talent managing the finances of any local group
- Some people will have a natural talent for writing up discussions and debates that take place in meetings
- Some people will have a natural talent for unpicking the arguments put forward by those pushing the cuts
- Some people will have a natural talent for investigative reporting
- Some people will have a natural talent for using the legal levers available to challenge central and local government on the decisions that they take. (e.g. Judicial reviews)
- Some people will have a natural talent for interrogating and analysing the documents and information put out by those delivering the cuts
- Some people will have a natural talent for getting lots of local organisations to get together, communicate and co-operate.
What I think is vital for all local groups is that they get a feel for who has what skills that they can contribute - and in particular what they need but are currently missing.
As mentioned on another thread, in Cambridge we're in the process of doing precisely that. The trades union/local based movement identified needing more energy, ideas and general "dynamism" within the local movement. The students based movement on education identified stronger links outside the university and a shortage of funding as issues. On the union/local side, we have links with the local community and we have access to funding through the various union branch committees. On the student side, they have the energy, ideas and the dynamism.
The next thing on my list is to try and arrange something that can bring the two groups together.
What the result is of bringing the two sides together I don't know - but for me that is what makes it all the more exciting. At the same time, I'm also of the view that most of the people there will be old enough to take responsibility for their own actions.
Prince Rhyus
Spokesman of King Antonio
Sorry for the long post above.
There is a lot of fear out here in the public sector - in particular with people who are petrified about losing their jobs. (That's to say nothing for those poor souls dependent on public services.) We need to acknowledge that. Part of the movement I think is about providing reassurance to those of us out there - myself included - that we're not alone in this.
There is a lot of fear out here in the public sector - in particular with people who are petrified about losing their jobs. (That's to say nothing for those poor souls dependent on public services.) We need to acknowledge that. Part of the movement I think is about providing reassurance to those of us out there - myself included - that we're not alone in this.
Similar threads
- Poll
