Just how militant are you prepared to be?

[claphamboy]

In this case overturning the attempt to make our class pay for their crisis. Stopping the assault on the welfare state. Once won we should turn the radical energy released by this fight to demand an economy built and run for ordinary people not for those who own and control this country. A programme of public works and investment for job creation and the guarantee of real work and training for all. Nationalisation under democratic control of this countries utilities and their supply for need not profit. Investment in health and education for all our citizens.

All of these things are possible and would create economic growth. The people employed by expanding needed services and state sponsored investment will have money, they will spend it, it goes around and around.
It's not rocket science. Most of all, winning means the putting to rest of this bullshit that these things are not possible because "the country" can't afford it". While and a tiny minority own and control this country for their own benefit, this remains a sick lie

All we need is a party that can actually convince enough people to believe in that and would actually enact it and we'll all be living in utopia.

 

[free spirit]

Bolded bit can only happen if the LibDems walk away, that's not going to happen with the polls as they are, they are in it for the long haul.

I'd not be so sure - clegg's now trying to force through policies that the party itself vetoed before the election, he only just won the leadership election in the first place, and in many eyes actually ballsed up the election resulting in less MP's than they started with, so he's actually on very thin ice with a lot of the party.

the none orange book (tory) lib dems may well also realise that their best chance of escaping from this relatively unscathed is to actually show some balls and bring the coalition down to stop the cuts etc.

it's not at that stage yet, but there's a large section of the lib dem party who're not really on board with this coalition at all, including many of the pre-cleg era senior party members, so I can easily forsee a scenario where they'd kick clegg into touch if things went too bad. Giving someone enough rope to hang themselves springs to mind.

this may be wishful thinking, but I can see it happening if things get much worse eg the UK heading back into recession combined with a big protest movement and further loss of support for the coalition and lib dems.

 

[free spirit]

In this case overturning the attempt to make our class pay for their crisis. Stopping the assault on the welfare state. Once won we should turn the radical energy released by this fight to demand an economy built and run for ordinary people not for those who own and control this country. A programme of public works and investment for job creation and the guarantee of real work and training for all. Nationalisation under democratic control of this countries utilities and their supply for need not profit. Investment in health and education for all our citizens.

All of these things are possible and would create economic growth. The people employed by expanding needed services and state sponsored investment will have money, they will spend it, it goes around and around.
It's not rocket science. Most of all, winning means the putting to rest this bullshit that these things are not possible because "the country" can't afford it". While a tiny minority own and control this country for their own benefit, this remains a sick lie

I'd vote for that.

 

[DotCommunist]

I'm all for the battle the cuts fight- but it should be recognized that the vehicle of capitalism does not begin and end with opposing these cuts. It is the right here here right now struggle but it is also standard operating procedure.

 

[dylans]

All we need is a party that can actually convince enough people to believe in that and would actually enact it and we'll all be living in utopia.

5
In 1945 this country was bankrupt but because of the demands of ordinary people who insisted that the post war Britain was not going to return to the poverty of the 30s. That their struggle and suffering had to lead to something better, Churchill was swept out office and the welfare state was built. The NHS was built. Pensions were introduced. This was a massive gain and one we have enjoyed ever since. This is what is under attack. I think ordinary people still believe in this. What they need is to be broken from the lie that austerity is in the "national interest" or that "cuts must be made" No they don't. This is an ideological attack for the benefit of the rich who are intent on destroying the welfare state and creating an economy where charity replaces public services and the population is driven into shitty white collar cheap labour temping jobs with little or no security or rights or chances of mobility.

 

[claphamboy]

I'd not be so sure - clegg's now trying to force through policies that the party itself vetoed before the election, he only just won the leadership election in the first place, and in many eyes actually ballsed up the election resulting in less MP's than they started with, so he's actually on very thin ice with a lot of the party.

the none orange book (tory) lib dems may well also realise that their best chance of escaping from this relatively unscathed is to actually show some balls and bring the coalition down to stop the cuts etc.

it's not at that stage yet, but there's a large section of the lib dem party who're not really on board with this coalition at all, including many of the pre-cleg era senior party members, so I can easily forsee a scenario where they'd kick clegg into touch if things went too bad. Giving someone enough rope to hang themselves springs to mind.

this may be wishful thinking, but I can see it happening if things get much worse eg the UK heading back into recession combined with a big protest movement and further loss of support for the coalition and lib dems.

It's wishful thinking.

Firstly, the LibDems would be committing political suicide to go to the poll now, or in the next two or three years – they are gambling on this situation turning around in 4 or 5 years time. This is the LibDem’s first chance in power for, what, about 60 years? They aren’t walking away from it anytime soon.

Secondly, these cuts are not written in stone, if things seriously start going tits-up there will be changes in policy, even the Tories aren’t stupid enough, having waited so long to get back in power, to totally throw their chances of winning the next election out the window.

This coalition, whilst being uncomfortable to both parties, will last.

 

[claphamboy]

5
In 1945 this country was bankrupt but because of the demands of ordinary people who insisted that the post war Britain was not going to return to the poverty of the 30s. That their struggle and suffering had to lead to something better, Churchill was swept out office and the welfare state was built. The NHS was built. Pensions were introduced. This was a massive gain and one we have enjoyed ever since. This is what is under attack. I think ordinary people still believe in this. What they need is to be broken from the lie that austerity is in the "national interest" or that "cuts must be made" No they don't. This is an ideological attack for the benefit of the rich who are intent on destroying the welfare state and creating an economy where charity replaces public services and the population is driven into shitty white collar cheap labour temping jobs with little or no security or rights or chances of mobility.

TBH I didn't need the history lesson.

The fact remains that ALL THREE main parties claim that cuts are needed, the only different is how deep and how soon.

None of them, Labour included, are suggesting any sort of socialist utopia that you were suggesting in your pervious post – have you forgotten the last 13 years?

 

[ferrelhadley]

Secondly, these cuts are not written in stone, if things seriously start going tits-up there will be changes in policy,

The real cuts for the global economy start when the new republican congress starts voting on budgets next year. Lest you believe that cutting state spending will allow the private sector to flourish instantly.

The cuts are written in stone unless the tories admit that the Keynsian spending of Labour was justified and even necessary.

 

[ViolentPanda]

5
In 1945 this country was bankrupt but because of the demands of ordinary people who insisted that the post war Britain was not going to return to the poverty of the 30s. That their struggle and suffering had to lead to something better, Churchill was swept out office and the welfare state was built. The NHS was built. Pensions were introduced. This was a massive gain and one we have enjoyed ever since. This is what is under attack. I think ordinary people still believe in this. What they need is to be broken from the lie that austerity is in the "national interest" or that "cuts must be made" No they don't. This is an ideological attack for the benefit of the rich who are intent on destroying the welfare state and creating an economy where charity replaces public services and the population is driven into shitty white collar cheap labour temping jobs with little or no security or rights or chances of mobility.

And the "welfare state" is what we got because the powers-that-be knew that the people would settle for nothing less, wouldn't accept a re-run of the broken promises of the inter-war years.
The power-elites aren't stupid. They know that if push comes to shove, they'd rather be making smaller profits than no profits at all. The entire cuts scenario so far is an exercise in attempting to socialise the costs of private Capital's mistakes, and when enough people realise that and react against it, the government (after close consultation with its' paymasters) will seemingly find the balls to to tax corporate Britain harder, and wonder of wonders, corporate Britain will go along with it until another chance to indulge in the rapine and pillage of the public sector comes along.

 

[radio_atomica]

TBH I didn't need the history lesson.

The fact remains that ALL THREE main parties claim that cuts are needed, the only different is how deep and how soon.

None of them, Labour included, are suggesting any sort of socialist utopia that you were suggesting in your pervious post – have you forgotten the last 13 years?

Where did he say that the way to achieve that would be to reinstate labour?

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's wishful thinking.

Firstly, the LibDems would be committing political suicide to go to the poll now, or in the next two or three years – they are gambling on this situation turning around in 4 or 5 years time. This is the LibDem’s first chance in power for, what, about 60 years? They aren’t walking away from it anytime soon.

Closer to 80 years, unless you count participation in national governments.

Secondly, these cuts are not written in stone, if things seriously start going tits-up there will be changes in policy, even the Tories aren’t stupid enough, having waited so long to get back in power, to totally throw their chances of winning the next election out the window.

That will depend on whether they judge it better to look tough, or to practice serious politics.

This coalition, whilst being uncomfortable to both parties, will last.

Because the participants in it need it to.

 

[ViolentPanda]

TBH I didn't need the history lesson.

The fact remains that ALL THREE main parties claim that cuts are needed, the only different is how deep and how soon.

None of them, Labour included, are suggesting any sort of socialist utopia that you were suggesting in your pervious post – have you forgotten the last 13 years?

Who says we need the three main parties?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Where did he say that the way to achieve that would be to reinstate labour?

Which would in fact be the best way to bend over, spread our buttocks and say "please, butt-fuck me some more, and don't use any lube this time!".

 

[waylon]

Bit of spit though? And as long as the clown who's rumpin us has a bit of a beard, just so we get a tickle when he rims us, what can be objectionable about that?

 

[ymu]

Yeah well that would be a result, and I fuckin voted Liberal lol. But have Labour changed? Have they fuck. Thereis no answer, just summat worse.

It's not about which bums are in the seats of power - without a revolution, we have no control over that (and we'd not have any control with a revolution, either). It's about drawing lines in the sand which no party can afford to cross. I have no truck with any of them. These cuts are not necessary, not the Tories' cuts, not Labour's cuts. This is our time to make it clear what the limits on our tolerance are. Doesn't matter how you choose to express it - just make sure you do.

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

tbf, the fuel protestors in 2000(ish) showed how it should be done, with a relatively tiny number of committed people managing to nearly shut down the country and force the government into a change of policy.

I do have a sneaky suspicion that there was a fair degree of establishment and industry collusion in that mind, but the UK could be brought to the brink of being shut down pretty quickly with a fairly small number of carefully targeted but sustained actions.

That was a good example of non-violent action that caused maximum confusion and disruption, but didn’t the government make some change in the law to prevent it happening again?

Yes...

But probably not in the way you would imagine.

 

[dylans]

Where did he say that the way to achieve that would be to reinstate labour?

I didn't, he has invented a straw man and proceeded to knock it down. I have no faith in Labour. I didn't vote for any of the bastards. I have faith in the power of ordinary standing up and fighting for what we need.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

feet or knees basically innit?

but i'll punch out the lights of any bastard straw man that gets in my way.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I didn't, he has invented a straw man and proceeded to knock it down. I have no faith in Labour. I didn't vote for any of the bastards. I have faith in the power of ordinary standing up and fighting for what we need.

And it really is going to be about people standing up for what they need, whether that be an end to the cuts, or lasting political change, not (as I'm sure the media will be quick to paint any resistance to oppression) because we're violent, misguided or mad, but because the current system wishes to deprive people of their livelihoods, their self-respect and their innate right to tell the government that they elected that that government is no longer worthy of exercising the power they hold at the peoples' consent.

 

[blowbach]

Which would in fact be the best way to bend over, spread our buttocks and say "please, butt-fuck me some more, and don't use any lube this time!".

No need to be so crude about it ;-)




What the hell. MI5 already have my details. They had them a looong time ago.

It's going to get bloody, whether we like it or not.
There is a reason why they have been engineering society in this direction,
for so long. The propaganda, the weaponry, the paid thugs.

Most of us realise that most of us are good decent loving giving caring
people. And those of the most of us realise that it doesn't matter about
the 'most' of us. It only takes a coupla cunts coming together to piss
in the toybox.

Well tough tittie. It's here. It's now. You didn't choose to be part of this
history, no more or less than those in the French Revolution.
What good that one did is debatable as well. It doesn't matter. It will
be messy this time as well, but it will solve nothing, bring no long term
gains. That is why I don't believe in violence. It brings nothing in the end.
But in the end it is inevitable.

But I am the last person you should listen to. I am an avowed nihilist.
But only because I see not alternative mind you.

Shit, I wish we could all just get along.
But we can't.
You know what is going to happen eventually don't you?

I envy my Uncle Jo Walters traipsing happily off to WW1 to fight the
Gerry. Never to return at the age of 19. I often wonder how he met
his end. Was it quick? Was it painful? Did the fear really get to sink in?
Or was it fast, like a drunk falling down the stairs and bashing his head?
Goodnight Vienna. Anyhow. He knew who the enemy was. Hell they even
had the funny accents and uniforms to match. He KNEW what needed to
be done. He had little choice in his time. To be a man. To hold his head
up high. One thing I know is, that he WAS scared. I would have been too.
And so would you. Still, he did the RIGHT thing. I want to do the right thing.
But society has been so fragmented that most people don't know who
the enemy is any more. They don't have funny accents...

The reason I gabble on about this is this:
There is a war on every day.
We know what is happening.
But the big strong MEN that would have once defended us have all
gone AWOL. Playing cops and robbers, getting to wear a uniform, getting
to play with a REAL gun.

These are the men that should be fighting our war for us. But they have
lost their minds. I know they are real people. I have a few mates that are
in the PARA's. Yep, fierce fighting men. I love them as brothers and wish
no harm on them. I hope to fuck they don't come home in a separate box
to the one their legs are contained in.

As for the police. Well, you only had to read their blogs over the holborn
Scumoween rave to see how pissed off they were. It is on record that
they wanted to break bones and skulls and teach those 'hippies' a lesson.
They feel let down by their masters in not having carte blanche to do
as they see fit. I saw quite a bit of spite on those blogs that shocked me.
Remember WE are watching YOU! Too.

Again. They have lost touch with reality.
Reality is that that does not disappear when you stop closing your eyes.
The reality is that the people want to congregate. They want to dance.
They want to get loaded and have a good time!

We have done this for thousands of years. But now they think that it is
a good time for us to stop? I don't think so.

The mates that I know in the SAS (Sonic Assault System) would be
parachuting into A'stan not with SA80s but with Fender Stratocasters.

I wanted to join the army when I was a child. I couldn't wait to sign up.
But then I grew up. I couldn't believe in it. I was fucked if i was going
to be a 'legitimate target'. And fight the rich man's war instead of the
'average' man's war. I'm getting old now. Never was a fighter. I tried,
but I kept getting beat up. I would have loved to settle an argument
with my fists, but i couldn't so words had to suffice. Maybe no great loss.

My family fought and sometimes died for my (and your) right to set up
a sound system and listen to some 'repetitive beats'. Not for us to be
told by some jack-booted prick 'No, you can't do that, and I'm going to
smash your skull to prove it'. I don't give a FUCK what you 'think'.
I don't give a fuck how tall you are. I don't give a fuck what 'laws' you
have on your side. I will teach you reality. And if you are lucky, all it will
be is a headache in the morning....

It is called Asymmetric warfare. They know all about it. But have no
defense against it. I led a pack of Wombles once. I was hunted down
like a dog. I sniffed out the 'pigs' in the crowd. They had to give their
game away to get me. And they had dreadlocks and tattoos etc...
True to form they didn't know I was coming, But when I led that charge
from the front, they followed (well it was kinda the direction they were
going in anyway ;-).... I couldn't beat the helicopters, the dogs...
that is another story for another day. Point is, you just don't know
who is gonna materialise out of where, and what they are going to have
in their bag o' tricks. I was clean. Always was, always will be.
But fuck you should have seen their faces....

I didn't make my point and the ones I tried to make are vague and half-
arsed. Tear them to shreds. Like the millions before. And the millions after
to come...

Seeing as i have rambled for so long, indulge me a little further:

A Song in Storm

Be well assured that on our side
The abiding oceans fight,
Though headlong wind and heaping tide
Make us their sport to-night.
By force of weather, not of war,
In jeopardy we steer.
Then welcome Fate's discourtesy
Whereby it shall appear
How in all time of our distress,
And our deliverance too,
The game is more than the player of the game,
And the ship is more than the crew!

Out of the mist into the mirk
The glimmering combers roll.
Almost these mindless waters work
As though they had a soul --
Almost as though they leagued to whelm
Our flag beneath their green:
Then welcome Fate's discourtesy
Whereby it shall be seen, etc.

Be well assured, though wave and wind
Have mightier blows in store,
That we who keep the watch assigned
Must stand to it the more;
And as our streaming bows rebuke
Each billow's baulked career,
Sing, welcome Fate's discourtesy
Whereby it is made clear, etc.

No matter though our decks be swept
And mast and timber crack --
We can make good all loss except
The loss of turning back.
So, 'twixt these Devils and our deep
Let courteous trumpets sound,
To welcome Fate's discourtesy
Whereby it will be found, etc.

Be well assured, though in our power
Is nothing left to give
But chance and place to meet the hour,
And leave to strive to live.
Till these dissolve our Order holds,
Our Service binds us here.
Then welcome Fate's discourtesy
Whereby it is made clear
How in all time of our distress,
As in our triumph too,
The game is more than the player of the game
And the ship is more than the crew!

 

[Edie]

Phew! A little tl:dr but nicely written at the start!

 

[Citizen66]

A viable strategy would be to infiltrate/open sado masochist venues dotted around kensington and Westminster. Then, when the inevitable Tories slither through the doors you can't be held accountable for the ultra violence as they volunteered themselves to be in that position. Actually its better still as they pay good money for it. And they're hardly likely to go to the police to complain, are they?

Should be good for photo opportunities too.

 

[ericjarvis]

Who says we need the three main parties?

I'd say they all three need to be completely routed at the earliest opportunity. We have to utterly destroy party politics as it currently exists in the UK. Which means ALL OF YOU being willing to stand for election as, or to fund and campaign for, independent councillors, MEPs and MPs. Doesn't matter all that much what they believe in so long as they are prepared to set up legislation that strictly limits political party spending and thus funding.

There's nothing wrong with party politics in principle. The problem is that we have three main political parties all in hock to the same vested interests.

 

[Libertad]

A viable strategy would be to infiltrate/open sado masochist venues dotted around kensington and Westminster.
Should be good for photo opportunities too.

This idea I am liking...

 

[claphamboy]

Where did he say that the way to achieve that would be to reinstate labour?

He didn't, but did post about how 'old' Labour made changes after the war, I was just pointing out ‘new’ Labour isn’t likely to be the answer this time around.

Who says we need the three main parties?

We don't, if you want the big changes suggested by dylans, because none of the three main parties seem interested in delivering that, hence my earlier post -

All we need is a party that can actually convince enough people to believe in that and would actually enact it and we'll all be living in utopia.

The trouble is I don't see one on the horizon.

 

[dylans]

He didn't, but did post about how 'old' Labour made changes after the war, I was just pointing out ‘new’ Labour isn’t likely to be the answer this time around.

.

No. I stated an historical fact, that the welfare state was created as a result of the demands of a population who were simply not prepared to see their suffering squandered by a return to to the Laissez faire economy of pre war times. It was indeed Labour that implemented the statutes that became the welfare state (and almost immediately began to water it down) but the thanks for the welfare state belongs to the British people not the government they forced into reform. As Violentpanda pointed out, reform came because the ruling class knew that social reform was the only way to save them from widespread revolt. In the face of a radicalised population the bosses will accept less profits rather than lose them all.

 

[butchersapron]

No. I stated an historical fact, that the welfare state was created as a result of the demands of a population who were simply not prepared to see their suffering squandered by a return to to the Laissez faire economy of pre war times. It was indeed Labour that implemented the statutes that became the welfare state (and almost immediately began to water it down) but the thanks for the welfare state belongs to the British people not the government they forced into reform. As Violentpanda pointed out, reform came because the ruling class knew that social reform was the only way to save them from widespread revolt. In the face of a radicalised population the bosses will accept less profits rather than lose them all.

"everything must change so that everything can stay the same"

 

[Streathamite]

I dunno. What's at the end of violence? Change for the better, like VP said in another thread? Or instability? Chaos, strikes, fuck all except people fighting and unsure? No one knows what they want other than NOT THIS.

I do know what I want; a) massive redistribution and social justice, so the power and the wealth of this rich nation is in the hands of ordinary working people

 

[temper_tantrum]

Anyone know any organisations running NVDA training, please?
Edit: by PM if necessary ...

 

[frogwoman]

I do know what I want; a) massive redistribution and social justice, so the power and the wealth of this rich nation is in the hands of ordinary working people

yep