Jim Murphy is new Scottish Labour leader.

[DotCommunist]

I get the impression that while the no vote was strong and unionists have their reasons, the sight of labour shoulder to shoulder with the tories on indy reff was the straw that broke the camels back wrt labour.

 

[William of Walworth]

...and Labour had called them stupid and tribal for it...

Called whom?

See my post above too, though-- we're not that many miles apart probably.

 

[William of Walworth]

I get the impression that while the no vote was strong and unionists have their reasons, the sight of labour shoulder to shoulder with the tories on indy reff was the straw that broke the camels back wrt labour.

Surely that should have stopped more Scottish people from voting No though, if that's true (I'm not saying it isn't)

 

[DotCommunist]

Surely that should have stopped more Scottish people from voting No though, if that's true (I'm not saying it isn't)

you can believe in the usefullness and structure of the union and still think labour have lost all mandate. I think thats partly what has happened

 

[Dogsauce]

The only downside of the Labour>SNP shift is that it doesn't make Cameron look like a bungling prick for calling/playing the referendum, it seems to have worked well for him (damaging Labour). At one point it looked like a catastrophic misjudgement, but now he gets to be a bit smug, the ham-faced cunt.

 

[Sue]

I get the impression that while the no vote was strong and unionists have their reasons, the sight of labour shoulder to shoulder with the tories on indy reff was the straw that broke the camels back wrt labour.

Surely that should have stopped more Scottish people from voting No though, if that's true (I'm not saying it isn't)

No, I think a lot of people voted No *despite* the Better Together campaign. My sister, for example, voted SNP in 2011 because she thought they'd done a good job but had voted Labour back in the day then SSP/Green. She voted No because she thought a lot of stuff hadn't been fully thought through. She thought the Better Together campaign was awful and despises Labour. Not sure how she'll be voting this time but pretty sure it won't be Labour.

 

[danny la rouge]

William of Walworth I think Sue, weepiper, brogdale and DotCommunist are all correct. All those factors play a part.

But so does this sort of thing (tweet below, detailing a Daily Mail article saying Scots are raving mad and ungrateful). People see this sort of thing, and their response is "Oh, you think so, do you? Well, we'll see about that" We have an expression here to describe that sort of reaction, it's called being "thrawn". It means something like "contrary, perverse and intractable".

Part of it is that some people are saying "well, we might have voted to stay in the Union, but that doesn't mean we're happy with the way things are done round here. As you're about to find out".

Part of it is that people have woken up to the fact that Labour has been the party running local government in areas of greatest deprivation since the days of Keir Hardy and more than 100 years later, those are still the areas of greatest deprivation. And they're thinking, "well Labour's more than had their chance, and we vote for them time and again in GEs to keep the Tories out, but win or lose, we get more of the same. What's a good way of stirring things up? Oh aye. This".

And part of it is that Labour has just taken their voters in Scotland for granted. In fact, their reaction to being found out has been to insult people.

A commentator likened the phenomenon to the coming of punk. Labour in this analogy is prog rock. Their attitude is entitled, baffled, disgusted and angry. And while the punks (the DIY, self-directed, homemade zine photocopiers intending to vote SNP) might not have all the answers, they have a feeling of release, of wiping the slate clean, and of a simplicity in the way they want to express their rage.

(I think they'll be disappointed, but that's entirely besides the point).

All of this can be seen coming through the indy ref campaign, and with hindsight if you read the indy ref threads (especially the big one in the Scotland forum), you'll see it all there.

 

[danny la rouge]

Surely that should have stopped more Scottish people from voting No though, if that's true (I'm not saying it isn't)

No. I don't have time right now, but no, that doesn't cover it.

 

[DotCommunist]

Thrawn would be close to 'wilfuly stubborn'?

'Bloody minded' maybe?

 

[weepiper]

Thrawn would be close to 'wilfuly stubborn'?

'Bloody minded' maybe?

It means doing the opposite of what you're being coerced into or steered towards because fuck you, that's why.

 

[weepiper]

Sure -- no disagreement. But I'm just saying things seem so hugely different in Scotland than most other places.

I can't blame Scots for getting pissed off with Labour about that, but there does seem a bit of a disconnect between the 54% No -- 46% Yes Indy result and the level of subsequent sheer hate for Labour -- clearly amongst a lot of No voters too given the polling. Call me puzzled but ...

Thinking about this now though (which I wasn't last night ) In retrospect both Scottish Labour and Labour generally will have to put their Indy tactics down as among their very worst errors of judgment -- tactically and in every other way. Looks like it will take them a long time -- if ever? -- to recover from that in Scotland. It would take a lot of bad shit from the SNP to help that happen (don't rule that out in the long run mind you ).

The very least ScotsLab need would be a new leader who isn't Jim Murphy (!). Very least. Plus Devo Max if not full Indy from the rest-of-UK LP.

Anyone would think it was a different country or something.

 

[DotCommunist]

It means doing the opposite of what you're being coerced into or steered towards because fuck you, that's why.

I think I may have been thrawny sometimes without even knowing it.

 

[weepiper]

I think I may have been thrawny sometimes without even knowing it.

Thrawn. Just thrawn.

 

[Celyn]

Oh, I think "thrawny" might be a nice new word to have, though. Might spell it "thrawnie".

Thrawnie Scotland. The Thrawnie Thrawnie Banks of Loch Lomond.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think I may have been thrawny sometimes without even knowing it.

you're better known as ornery tho.

 

[Pickman's model]

Thrawn. Just thrawn.

last night i had something i just thrawn together for tea

 

[danny la rouge]

Oh, I think "thrawny" might be a nice new word to have, though. Might spell it "thrawnie".

Thrawnie Scotland. The Thrawnie Thrawnie Banks of Loch Lomond.

I'm thrawnie, thrawnie, thrawnie. So thrawnie, thrawnie, thrawnie.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm thrawnie, thrawnie, thrawnie. So thrawnie, thrawnie, thrawnie.

i'm too thrawnie for my job

 

[Celyn]

i'm too thrawnie for my job

If we turned that into "jobbie", of course, the meaning would change somewhat.

 

[Celyn]

Oh no, I didn't mean to derail the Murphy=nasty numpty thread.

 

[DotCommunist]

you're better known as ornery tho.

an ole cuss

 

[DotCommunist]

what confuses matters more is Admiral Thrawn from the star wars books keeps hoving into my thinking every time I see the word thrawn

 

[danny la rouge]

And that Mail story isn't a one off. It's day after day of the stuff.

Here's another:

 

[Celyn]

So Tory Alan Cochrane wants us to vote Labour. Hmmm.

 

[weepiper]

Called whom?

Saw this earlier and couldn't reply - the people who voted Yes. Labour's alienated 45% of the voting population. That takes some coming back from in the polls. Labour politicians came out with some really vicious stuff during the referendum. See Ian Davidson's 'bayonet the wounded' comments, for example.

 

[weepiper]

This article from the 2011 Holyrood election is good background reading on the dangers of associating with the Tories William of Walworth

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2011/may/06/snp-election-victory-scottish-independence


The Libs copped it in 2011 and they're about to cop it again (their Westminster vote looks certain to collapse this time). Would the Labour vote be collapsing the same way if Labour had taken a neutral position on the indyref?

 

[William of Walworth]

Sure -- no disagreement. But I'm just saying things seem so hugely different in Scotland than most other places.

I can't blame Scots for getting pissed off with Labour about that, but there does seem a bit of a disconnect between the 54% No -- 46% Yes Indy result and the level of subsequent sheer hate for Labour -- clearly amongst a lot of No voters too given the polling. Call me puzzled but ...

Thinking about this now though (which I wasn't last night ) In retrospect both Scottish Labour and Labour generally will have to put their Indy tactics down as among their very worst errors of judgment -- tactically and in every other way. Looks like it will take them a long time -- if ever? -- to recover from that in Scotland. It would take a lot of bad shit from the SNP to help that happen (don't rule that out in the long run mind you ).

The very least ScotsLab need would be a new leader who isn't Jim Murphy (!). Very least. Plus Devo Max if not full Indy from the rest-of-UK LP.

Anyone would think it was a different country or something.

Feel free to be as dismissively rude as you like, but how about reading my post that you quoted properly?

In it, I was

(a) Saying exactly that -- I can see quite well that Scotland is different. Do you ever patronise people yourself by any chance?

(b) Saying quite a bit more than that anyway, in my effort to understand it.

 

[weepiper]

Fine, I don't know why I bothered trying to explain anything to you anyway.

 

[William of Walworth]

Saw this earlier and couldn't reply - the people who voted Yes. Labour's alienated 45% of the voting population. That takes some coming back from in the polls. Labour politicians came out with some really vicious stuff during the referendum. See Ian Davidson's 'bayonet the wounded' comments, for example.

Your Scottish knowledge is obviously far greater than mine, but I suspect there are more objective accounts than the above.

Such as that Guardian article you quoted just now, which expains things to me better than the above post.

 

[William of Walworth]

Fine, I don't know why I bothered trying to explain anything to you anyway.

Contemptuous, much? It's not just the Labour Party you hate, clearly.