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Jim Murphy is new Scottish Labour leader.

Fair enough point JTG, and I'll admit I don't know nearly enough about details of Scottish politics anyway.

I just fail to see why Labour are hated in Scotland to that extreme extent. Trying to understand it, but blatantly failing.
 
Fair enough point JTG, and I'll admit I don't know nearly enough about details of Scottish politics anyway.

I just fail to see why Labour are hated in Scotland to that extreme extent. Trying to understand it, but blatantly failing.
They're in bed with Tories. They actually want people to vote tactically for them to stop the SNP. It also seems to me that a party as rotten as Glasgow Labour (for example) are pretty easily deserted once a viable and less corrupt alternative appears
 
Fair enough point JTG, and I'll admit I don't know nearly enough about details of Scottish politics anyway.

I just fail to see why Labour are hated in Scotland to that extreme extent. Trying to understand it, but blatantly failing.
Because we loved them, we were faithful to them and stuck by them through thick and thin, and they repaid us for that by going behind our backs and getting in bed with our worst enemy. Both by siding with the Tories during the indyref and by a number of Parliamentary votes in which they've voted with the Tories recently. There's more, but that's behind a lot of it for many people.
 
Do Scottish Labour really like the Tories to that extent though?

Are they really that indistinguishable from them??

Even Nicola Sturgeon didn't quite claim that in the debate on Thursday.

I'm sort of seeing your point, but not getting the detail properly.
 
There's also the point that voting SNP doesn't help the Tories in any way, as those seats were never going to be blue.

Either it's irrelevant (Lab/SNP marginals) or it actually hurts the Tories (SNP/LD marginals) by taking seats from their most likely coalition partner.

There was a good article on the Guardian making this point but I can' find it now, however, this one covers some of the same ground. So Scottish voters can show their anger at Labour and still block any Tory gov, they can have their cake and eat it.

This is because most seats the SNP doesn’t gain would stay with Labour, and most of the ones the Lib Dems lose in the South West battlegrounds would be Tory gains - meaning that when it comes to the two blocs (Labour+SNP vs Conservative+Lib Dem) most likely to vote in the next government there is no net impact in the race to 326 seats.
 
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It may well do, South of the border.
How? Scottish voters can't affect that number of seats Lab/Con will get in E&W.

The only way that it could help the Cons is that they can use "the largest share of the vote should be gov" argument. However, as Danny has pointed out (on either this or another thread) seeing as though Labour have also been making that same stupid argument if it backfires on them they've only got themselves to blame.
 
How? Scottish voters can't affect that number of seats Lab/Con will get in E&W.

The only way that it could help the Cons is that they can use "the largest share of the vote should be gov" argument. However, as Danny has pointed out (on either this or another thread) seeing as though Labour have also been making that same stupid argument if it backfires on them they've only got themselves to blame.


Fair dos, I did see danny's points elsewhere on that. Still trying to get my head round that one.

But if Labour lose most of their seats in Scotland, as seems very likely, that leaves them needing that many more gains off Tories and Lib Dems further South to stop the Tories being the largest party UK wide. In terms of seats at least.
 
You may still get Tories, UK wide. And so might we further South.
How would voting SNP enable a Tory led government? You keep saying this but unless the SNP do a complete about face as Spanky mentioned it simply isn't true.

(On an SNP-Tory alliance I'm not going claim that the SNP are more honest than any other party but I think they're smart enough to know that such an alliance would lead to wipeout even larger than the LDs are having)
 
If you don't want Tories, then get out there and do something about politics in your own back yard and stop blaming us for English voters' choices.


I live in Labour dominated South Wales. English marginals are not my back yard.

I don't blame the Scots for anything but I'm on a complete understanding fail about why Labour are hated to the extreme extent they seem to be at the moment up there.
 
I dunno - don't let's forget '79 - I'm not convinced the SNP wouldn't enable a Tory government if they thought it would help their ultimate cause.
They would be insane to. We've a Scottish Parliament election in 2016 and they'd be heavily punished for that.
 
I just fail to see why Labour are hated in Scotland to that extreme extent. Trying to understand it, but blatantly failing.

At its simplest, its because they have sold themselves and their supporters down the river continuously over many years - A lot since the 70s/80s yes but it took a particular turn for the worse when Scottish Labour almost entirely lost its identity when it let itself be subsumed into New Labour in the 90s.
 
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when i started working in a youth project in the southside of glasgow i got my first insight into how shitty the labour presence in glasgow can be. One of the issue that came up was the lack of faclities for young poeple to do anything. Although on a par with other areas that had a dedicated youth centre in terms of deprivation according the scottish multiple index of deprivation, our area did not. What this actually meant soon became apparent to me when trying to hire rooms for various youth groups, going from community centres to churchy places it was often impossible to get a hire just for a couple of hours.

Except that there was a small community centre just accross the road from us. And when i did my nosey at the place, although there were signs stating that x y and z groups where on at such and such days and times, there was no sign of anything actually coming in terms of people coming and going. Spoke to people that knew the place well and they said fuck all happened there. The day to day running of it was done by a person on a paid wage who was also a labour councillor in the area. Who was also the chair of the community planning partnership who have a lot of clout in terms of how statutory funding is allocated to various agencies in the area. A lot of power to be concentrated in one persons hands. This person had history with one of the members of our management committee, i dont know why, but this meant that we were fucked for getting a hire at this community centre just accross the road from us. It also meant that we were not going to be able to get a sniff of any funding coming through the community planning partnership, regardless as to the merits of whatever pieces of work we were engaged in... So in summery, a community centre doing fuck all but paying her a wage, the ability to get things done with her as a gate keeper could only happen if you were part of a small clique - you get the picture..

Although the local councellor of our area, she had never once raised a single issue in the city chambers. There are lots of other dimensions i could mention about how people that were close to her personally could find themselves in employment, but maybe not best to be naming names on the internet.

This is just one small story from one pretty small part of Glasgow. But i suspect many people at many other parts of glasgow has similiar stories to tell. If you read this book by cathy mccormack the wee yellow butterfly, about campaigning in easterhouse to deal with damp housing, poverty etc and one can get a picture of what it is like to deal with the local politicians which in glasgow hitherto has been labour in the main.

This party has the name labour - it historically has laid claim to be the voice of the working class. And when thatcher was in, it was dead easy for labour to give it the big unn about how things would be different if they were in power. Except locally they always been in power here in glasgow and culminativly i think enough people know that they do not have our interests at heart. Likewise in power in the blair to brown days. At that time i was on the dole, and was involved a bit in a welfare rights organisation by and for people experiencing poverty. In that capacity, i witnessed the introdcution of esa and how they intensified notions of deserving and underserving poor.

I think now with the tories being in and they have tried to shift their rhetoric leftward doesnt work in glasgow now, because of these culminative experiences that shows them for the shower of shite that they are. I think when Margaret Curran gives it the 'im fae the east end' chat it rings hollow when there has been little interventions in dealing with the issues the people of the east end has faced. Margret Curran who was a community development worker so is trained in the art of engagement but seems incapable of listening...Instead presiding over the commenwealth games, social cleansing that makes nobodys day to day lives better. IF you are a retail buisness looking to open up in the second biggest shopping place in europe glasgows yer place mind you and you will get the utmost support from gcc


I think basiclly now weve reached a critical mass, siding with the tories confirmed what people already experienced with labour over the years. It will be good to get them to fuck, hopefully once that has happened we can start talking about how to build real alternatives to the neoliberal shit thats been flung at us for years....
 
But if Labour lose most of their seats in Scotland, as seems very likely, that leaves them needing that many more gains off Tories and Lib Dems further South to stop the Tories being the largest party UK wide. In terms of seats at least.
Well pretty much all the polling has shown there's a swing to Lab from Con in England. It's not impossible that Lab will have fewer seats than the Tories but again the fact that they are the single largest party won't enable the Tories to form a gov if they and their likely coalition partners can't get a majority.

It's looking increasingly likely that no party is going to get a majority so rather than just thinking about the individual parties you need to consider the different blocks. Whichever party wins in a Lab/SNP marginal the number of seats in the anti-tory block isn't going to be effected.

The only time it might is if the split in the anti-Tory vote enables a LD/Tory to come from behind and get the seat. But that's extremely unlikely in most cases as the LD/Tory is starting from too low a base to make any difference. Looking at the most recent constituency polling, that's simply not going happen. (The Tories one gain comes from a LD seat so is effectively is a sum zero gain)

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Likewise in power in the blair to brown days. At that time i was on the dole, and was involved a bit in a welfare rights organisation by and for people experiencing poverty. In that capacity, i witnessed the introdcution of esa and how they intensified notions of deserving and underserving poor.


Indeed, Murphy was one of the architects of ESA, he was Employment Secretary at the time of its inception.
 
Fair enough point JTG, and I'll admit I don't know nearly enough about details of Scottish politics anyway.

I just fail to see why Labour are hated in Scotland to that extreme extent. Trying to understand it, but blatantly failing.


I was discussing the decline of labour in Scotland today with a pal while visiting up home and the phrase "poverty of ambition" came up to describe labour.

Everything I see from labour exudes a poverty of ambition and resignation to the capitalist narative. Well the SNP have said things can get better and seem to be trying to do something about it. Labour is a tired mechanism with its systems destroyed by Blair to take control. Policy comes from a clique at the top and not a jot of say comes from the members. It's why I left the party. I'm in London and I expect I'll make my mind who I vote for this time in the poling booth.
 
19sixtysix : That's a pretty damned good summaey to be fair, so thanks.

It's not like I'm any great fan of Labour myself, far from. What I was trying clumsily to unearth though is why they're so much hated in Scotland in particular and not so much elsewhere -- here in Wales its nowhere near the same. Probably not the North of England either.

I do get the thing about the SNP seeming/being like a refreshing change. They're not any less capitalist than Labour though.
 
19sixtysix : That's a pretty damned good summaey to be fair, so thanks.

It's not like I'm any great fan of Labour myself, far from. What I was trying clumsily to unearth though is why they're so much hated in Scotland in particular and not so much elsewhere -- here in Wales its nowhere near the same. Probably not the North of England either.

I do get the thing about the SNP seeming/being like a refreshing change. They're not any less capitalist than Labour though.
Come on William, use your imagination a bit. Just think what the political mood in Wales would be like if the nation was split 50:50 on the issue of independence, had just been through a period of intense political consciousness-raising & activity and had witnessed the LP side whole-heartedly with the vermin to oppose those seeking change through independence?
 
Come on William, use your imagination a bit. Just think what the political mood in Wales would be like if the nation was split 50:50 on the issue of independence, had just been through a period of intense political consciousness-raising & activity and had witnessed the LP side whole-heartedly with the vermin to oppose those seeking change through independence?
...and Labour had called them stupid and tribal for it...
 
Sure -- no disagreement. But I'm just saying things seem so hugely different in Scotland than most other places.

I can't blame Scots for getting pissed off with Labour about that, but there does seem a bit of a disconnect between the 54% No -- 46% Yes Indy result and the level of subsequent sheer hate for Labour -- clearly amongst a lot of No voters too given the polling. Call me puzzled but ...

Thinking about this now though (which I wasn't last night :oops: ) In retrospect both Scottish Labour and Labour generally will have to put their Indy tactics down as among their very worst errors of judgment -- tactically and in every other way. Looks like it will take them a long time -- if ever? -- to recover from that in Scotland. It would take a lot of bad shit from the SNP to help that happen (don't rule that out in the long run mind you ;) ).

The very least ScotsLab need would be a new leader who isn't Jim Murphy (!). Very least. Plus Devo Max if not full Indy from the rest-of-UK LP.
 
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