Jews stoned in East End (again)

[durruti02]

An outreach from the Jewish community to the Bengali community is the only way forward ime, and the actions of a small number of violent thugs should not be taken as indicative of the attitudes of the majority of naturalised Bengali Brits. It's absolutely irrelevent who sits on the council of this ward.

Do I blame the Labour councillor for the attitudes of white children towards Jews/Muslims after they stoned a group of our children walking home from school in her ward? 1 (invisibly) Jewish, 7 (visibly) Muslim were stoned on their way home from the local comp with taunts of "Go home Pakis" to the Muslim kids, and "Paki Lover!" to my son?

I blame the children themselves, some of whose parents would be horrified, some of whose parents are probably the root cause of their ingrained attitudes towards non-whites.

I don't blame the Labour councillor.

I do blame the national and international mainstream media (not local media) for whipping up hatred and fear of British Muslims, post Manhattan Massacre/London Transport bombings. I do blame extremists of all hues and the media's overfocus on them - BNP, Al Muhajaroun, etc - for polarising communities instead of focusing on community unity.

With fear instilled into people's hearts of the other, community unity might seem an impossiblity - yet there is much work to be done at a social level.

Quit the blame game and start working towards some degree of inter-group understanding and please stop trying to shunt blame to people who would not have thrown stones at the Jewish tourists.

a good post IP and yes that IS they way forward but please do not deny my knowledge and cynicism of, and my right to criticise the behaviour of SWP/respect in this area .. and btw i am one of many of the left in this area who think as i do

 

[editor]

...fucking thread ....whining little bitch...dispicable cunt... cunt....cunt...scum.... cunts...fucking useless...cunt.

Please stop otherwise the thread will be binned.

Racism/personal abuse/defamatory postings/gratuitous swearing etc is not allowed. We welcome lively and robust debate and have no problem with swearing (where appropriate) but posters using these forums to re-enact infantile playground battles will be clipped around the ear by the milk monitor. Threads that descend into personal insult-a-thons will be binned.

 

[Balbi]

Has anyone made the 'Local Shopkeepers Sell Out Of Space Raiders' sub-headline yet?

 

[durruti02]

firstly no.

secondly read the fucking thread rather than your knee jerk reaction to some whining little bitch who cannot debate and is being a dispicable cuntand find out why they are now reporting every post which highlights them as a cunt.

thridly since when is it aceptable on urban for some cunt to go around attempting to ascibe actions to politcial groups and organiseations which have no involvment in and then attempt to defame them on a publcially accessable forum? has urbans legal fighting team sudden had it's coffers enriched or are you going to fork out if the know legitious group start coming for you after durittis nonsense bollocks?

forthly durritti and many others are precsely why the poltics forums died on their arses. partisan muppets who'd rather cheap poitnn score and get one over on other posters than deabte real issues and will only discuss things in their limited and limiting terms they have no interest in anything remotely to do with real practical on the ground politics and eveyr thing to do with discussing old men with beards.

Fithly grammically its not personal abuse. I don't know them, thank fuck i moved on from 6th form years ago and met enoguh student grants there to keep me for life an extra durritti shaped one is more than excessive.

sixthly the words used are entirely appropreate to some scum who is attempting to make poltical capital out of this incident in order to bash a group he doens't like.

I'll put it in words you understand: cardiff city are responsible for the twin towers collasping becuase they didn't do anything to stop it or complain about it with an offical statement after the event. why are cardiff city such cunts, all football teams are this fucking useless?

which is the essence of what he's said. seems reasonable to you?

appropreate?

proportional?

reasoned?

or the work of a cunt?

and no we shouldn't need to report this worthless wastes of DNA on the boards what so ever you should know by now if duritti is reporting it then they are taking pasting in their polical viewpoint which is untennable at the best of times.

what a nasty man you are .. and a liar to boot!

1)where have i "ascibe actions to politcial groups and organiseations which have no involvment in " LOL i have said they did not HIGHLIGHT it .. somewhat differrent methinks! LOL

2) threads die not because people have differrent opinions but because of abuse like you have done ..

3) garfield i am politically active ..and it is becuase of this i have the opinions i do ..

4) yes it is personal abuse and it is bullying .. it would drive most people away .. not me btw

5) no abuse like you have done is excusable .. to me or generally

6) you are clearly deeply and utterly ignorent of TH politics and your bluebirds analogy is enitrely irrelevent
- as i said to VP

"2) the attack took place in a ward with a SWP councillor, one of only 4(?) they have out of the 20000+ councillors in the country .. so that makes it relevent

3) that the area has a respect mp .. ditto

4) that the SWP /Respect have used racial attacks ( and made out there is a war on islam ) to gain this now collapsed foothold .. whihc makes it relevent

so in this circumstance to say simply "i think some people have rightly questionned that if it was a group of elderly asians who were attacked by a group of white kids the 'left' would have been more interested" is entirely relevent and entirely unworthy of the response it is got"

you are nowt but a bully garfield .. you should be ashamed

 

[durruti02]

Wrong, the OP doesn't refer to a Respect councilor.
Even the link in the OP only refers to Respect signing an all-party condemnation.
Go on, have a look.
I think you'll find it only refers to an individual and his supposed sway over local youth, which isn't the same thing (although I'm surprised JHE missed the chance to deploy his usual "al Respecq" tag).

How?
The main relevance isn't to do with Respect or any other political party, it's that what was primarily Jewish-immigrant area 50-100 years ago is now a predominantly Muslim-immigrant area now

Ditto my arse.

What they have or haven't done are absolutely irrelevant to the core matter of this case: Whether or not it was an attack motivated by anti-Semitism.

It's irrelevant, you're postulating something that hasn't happened in order to support your preconceived ideas on what kind of reaction would occur. How can it be relevant when it's nonsensical and nothing to do with the reality of what happened?

It's not bizarre at all if you bother to go back and read your replies in context with the thread and with the posts you reply to.

And yet again you display no understanding of context.

You call it bullying and abusive, I call it very strongly worded and insult-laden understandable behaviour given your seeming difficulties in grasping a fairly simple point.

I don't know.
I suspect that, like politicians of all stripes, they would have weighed up how best to take advantage. The point being that every political party in the borough would have done so (as indeed they did with the ACTUAL attack).

1) sorry VP but you are wrong .. miah IS a respect cllr .. (please acknowledge)

2) the OP is not yours and it is NOT specifically about whether this attacks was racist .. it is not your right to dictate how this thread goes .. indeed the OP makes a BIGGER dig at Respect than i do!!! ( it suggests the attackers were might have been associated with a respect cllr .. which i have never siggested )

( p.s please think about this basic mistake you have made in not knowing the Cllr and also not having understood the OP and then about your support for garfield who is also ignorent of this .. please? )

3)"very strongly worded and insult-laden understandable behaviour" .. fuck me VP .. you thought of getting a job in PR/spinning? that is laughable!

4) but the key fact is you appear entirely ignorent of how Respect has operated here ( and generally ) and that highlighting them NOT highlighting some attacks while highlighting others is an entirely reasonable political repsonse .. and yes of course ALL parties would do likewise but urban is a debating forum mainly of the far left and @s .. you wish that i had condemned the Labour Party and Lib Dems too???? fuck me surely that is taken as read!! LOL ..

you are defending the indefensable here on many levels mate

 

[durruti02]

I'm going to try a different approach.

duritti would you consider it bad form for say calvin kline to release a perfume called auztiwitz and have the launch at the abeit mache frie gates and each bottle was shaped like a mini body buring oven and the logo was a star of david in gold leaf amde form barbed wire. the typical half starve Kline models all in blue and drab white pyjamas with matching hats?

would that seem off to you as a concept?

would you then see it was perhaps compunding the error if david cameron then said that Britian must support this kind of thing because the prime minster hadn't condemed it.

would you in any way feel rather offended at the suggestion that as brown hadn't spoken on your behalf you have no justification to complain about it. would you be even more incesenced at cameron for daring to try and make the primeminster look weak when out of all of the vaild and definate critisms that could be made he used other peoples suffering and offence as a burrow to take side swipes.

would you think that cameron was dispicable?

some cavets for reading this:

don't tell me what you think of Labour or Tory. They are merely recogniseable constructs and identifiable totems of party Poltics. There is no purchase to be had in discussion of them. Which would only serve as a diversion or obfiscation from the very obvious questions contained within the example.

Don't tell me whether my spelling or use of english is correct, i'm a dyspraxic dyslexic, it won't be, there is no mileage in this discussion either.

Don't tell me you own poltical viewpoints. I have no time for happy clappy do gooding relgious nutjobs of any pursuaion.

Finally will you now hopefully realise there is no merit of capital in you continuing down this route of argument it is without doubt fool hardy to continue.

what can i say? you are sick my friend .. a bully through and through .. someone disagrees with you and you come out with this shite?? get a grip

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

for the love of God duritti Learn to read and use logic for fucks sake...

 

[durruti02]

Please stop otherwise the thread will be binned.

thank you for intervening ed but surely it is posters not threads that should be binned

 

[invisibleplanet]

a good post IP and yes that IS they way forward but please do not deny my knowledge and cynicism of, and my right to criticise the behaviour of SWP/respect in this area .. [

Your knowledge is affected by your tunnel-vision re. 'the left', and your cynicism is part of the problem, durruti02

and btw i am one of many of the left in this area who think as i do

Then stop whining and offer practical, down-to-earth, non-partisan support to all the groups involved ELSE
IF you can't stomach working with people of all political, social, religious and racial hues, then what do you have to offer?

(Answer: In real terms, if you only have partisan criticisms, then you have Zilch to offer and are incapable of seeing the bigger picture, and are contributing to your community's increasing divide).

 

[ViolentPanda]

1) sorry VP but you are wrong .. miah IS a respect cllr .. (please acknowledge)

Obviously you're still having difficulty reading English.
I know Miah is a Respect councillor, you know Miah is a respect councillor.
But guess what, you stone-headed twit?

THE OP DOESN'T MENTION RESPECT. IT DOESN'T SAY "ABJOL MIAH, THE RESPECT COUNCILLOR".
In other words, as I say in the post you answer, the OP only tangentially[/quote] has anything to do with Respect, mainly via JHE's insinuations.

So basically what we have is the OP, a known Islamophobe, making insinuations, and then a ragbag of inarticulate sheep following his insinuations and treating them as gospel.

Lovely.

2) the OP is not yours and it is NOT specifically about whether this attacks was racist .. it is not your right to dictate how this thread goes .. indeed the OP makes a BIGGER dig at Respect than i do!!! ( it suggests the attackers were might have been associated with a respect cllr .. which i have never siggested )

I know the OP isn't mine, witling.

( p.s please think about this basic mistake you have made in not knowing the Cllr and also not having understood the OP and then about your support for garfield who is also ignorent of this .. please? )

AS I said at the top of this post, Miah isn't mentioned in his capacity as a Respect councillor, a fact that you appear to be "ignorent" [sic] of. The fact that you, I and Prince Philip may know that Miah is a Respect councillor is beside the point.

3)"very strongly worded and insult-laden understandable behaviour" .. fuck me VP .. you thought of getting a job in PR/spinning? that is laughable!

In which case tell me why it's "laughable", rather than gobbing off.

4) but the key fact is you appear entirely ignorent of how Respect has operated here ( and generally ) and that highlighting them NOT highlighting some attacks while highlighting others is an entirely reasonable political repsonse .. and yes of course ALL parties would do likewise but urban is a debating forum mainly of the far left and @s .. you wish that i had condemned the Labour Party and Lib Dems too???? fuck me surely that is taken as read!! LOL ..

It's amazing how you can construct a monument of irrelevant waffle and self-serving political posturing from my rather anodyne and obvious statement that:
"I suspect that, like politicians of all stripes, they would have weighed up how best to take advantage. The point being that every political party in the borough would have done so (as indeed they did with the ACTUAL attack)."
and then make the hilarious statement that "urban is a debating forum mainly of the far left and @s". Have you read the board recently? Far left my arse, you muppet. Get a grip. It's about as far left as a pensioner's tea-dance.

you are defending the indefensable here on many levels mate

Whatever you say, Igor.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Has anyone made the 'Local Shopkeepers Sell Out Of Space Raiders' sub-headline yet?

It's obviously a plot by the SWP/Respect axis, trying to take away the w/c's right (and yours of course, Balbi ) to buy Space Raiders.

 

[ViolentPanda]

thank you for intervening ed but surely it is posters not threads that should be binned

That's right, ed.

Anyone who doesn't agree with durutti02 and his agenda should be binned.

(That's sarcasm btw, durrutti.)

 

[ViolentPanda]

Your knowledge is affected by your tunnel-vision re. 'the left', and your cynicism is part of the problem, durruti02

Then stop whining and offer practical, down-to-earth, non-partisan support to all the groups involved ELSE
IF you can't stomach working with people of all political, social, religious and racial hues, then what do you have to offer?

(Answer: In real terms, if you only have partisan criticisms, then you have Zilch to offer and are incapable of seeing the bigger picture, and are contributing to your community's increasing divide).

A good post.

Pity it'll probably be wasted on people who rant about "the left" and "@" as though they're homogeneous groupings rather than being catch-all names for wildly heterogeneous groupings.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

An outreach from the Jewish community to the Bengali community is the only way forward ime, and the actions of a small number of violent thugs should not be taken as indicative of the attitudes of the majority of naturalised Bengali Brits. .

I quite agree with this part of your post.

It's absolutely irrelevent who sits on the council of this ward. .

This bit I disagree with. Respect HAS stirred up shite in the area and elsewhere with their constant banging on about 'palestine' and 'islamophobia' etc etc. They are no different from the bnp in their targetting of certain races and religions in election campaigns.

 

[nino_savatte]

'palestine' and 'islamophobia'

These things exist, do they not?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

These things exist, do they not?

not according to KBJ...

 

[KeyboardJockey]

These things exist, do they not?

I put those things in italics as it seems that it is all the swaps/respect/anl/(insert front group here) bang on about.

There was such a place as the British Palestine Mandate but never an independent country called Palestine. Hopefully there will one day be a independent Palestine peacefully living alongside the state of Israel.

Islamophobia exists but not the extent that some make it out to be. I've met nutters who want to gas muslims but they are the extreme of the extreme thankfully

 

[KeyboardJockey]

not according to KBJ...

See my post below. Islamophobia does exist I just disagree with how widespread it is.

My concern is the level of attention given to these issues by the swaps and their front groups is alienating non muslims from the left as a whole.

 

[nino_savatte]

I put those things in italics as it seems that it is all the swaps/respect/anl/(insert front group here) bang on about.

There was such a place as the British Palestine Mandate but never an independent country called Palestine. ]

Islamophobia exists but not the extent that some make it out to be. I've met nutters who want to gas muslims but they are the extreme of the extreme thankfully.

1. You exaggerate (presumably for dramatic effect).
2. Palestine still exists regardless of whether or not it was constructed as a country.
3. You underestimate or, rather, you deliberately downplay Islamophobia in order to pursue your agenda.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

1. You exaggerate (presumably for dramatic effect).

No the swaps have stirred up shit. Seen the results of it.

2. Palestine still exists regardless of whether or not it was constructed as a country.

The Palestinians exist but not a country of Palestine as I said earlier hopefully one day there wil be.

3. You underestimate or, rather, you deliberately downplay Islamophobia in order to pursue your agenda.

What 'agenda' is that then? All I'm interested in is reducing tension and what some of our left groups are doing is increasing tension.

 

[Spion]

There was such a place as the British Palestine Mandate but never an independent country called Palestine.

Irrelevant. Palestinian Arabs lived there, were driven out and should have the choice of return or compensation. I stuggle to understand why you want to reward ethnic cleansing with absolution of responsibility

 

[nino_savatte]

No the swaps have stirred up shit. Seen the results of it.


The Palestinians exist but not a country of Palestine as I said earlier hopefully one day there wil be.


What 'agenda' is that then? All I'm interested in is reducing tension and what some of our left groups are doing is increasing tension.

You make it sound as though the SWP is the only party that is interested in Palestine. Not true. That is another way that you and your fellow travellers seek to dehumanise those who suffer from Israeli violence

So what? That's your way of legitimating the excesses of Israeli policy.

Your agenda is pretty fucking obvious, dear boy. Do I need to produce a list of your recent threads?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Irrelevant. Palestinian Arabs lived there, were driven out and should have the choice of return or compensation. I stuggle to understand why you want to reward ethnic cleansing with absolution of responsibility

I dont want to reward ethnic cleansing I've already said on other threads that I support a compensation package to those displaced at the creation of the state of Israel.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

You make it sound as though the SWP is the only party that is interested in Palestine. Not true. That is another way that you and your fellow travellers seek to dehumanise those who suffer from Israeli violence

Yawn. Same old same old The reason I picked on the swp is that they are the main group behind the pushing of these issues in TH.

So what? That's your way of legitimating the excesses of Israeli policy.

I'm one of the first to condemn excesses or aint my condemnations conforming to your dogma?

Your agenda is pretty fucking obvious, dear boy. Do I need to produce a list of yuor recent threads?

What agenda is that then? I'll tell you what it is for fuck all my agenda is I want a peaceful coherent UK that respects ALL its citizens and has a govt that is representative of the people, with priority entry for refugees, control of unecessary economic migration, a peaceful co operative middle east, freedom of choice and movement, nationalisation of those communal assets ie railways. Very much an Old Labour programme before you start the kneejerk shouts of 'tory'.

 

[invisibleplanet]

I dont want to reward ethnic cleansing I've already said on other threads that I support a compensation package to those displaced at the creation of the state of Israel.

As does far-rightist Benny Elon.
http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=17977
This plan is unacceptable.

 

[nino_savatte]

Yawn. Same old same old The reason I picked on the swp is that they are the main group behind the pushing of these issues in TH.

I'm one of the first to condemn excesses or aint my condemnations conforming to your dogma?


What agenda is that then? I'll tell you what it is for fuck all my agenda is I want a peaceful coherent UK that respects ALL its citizens and has a govt that is representative of the people, with priority entry for refugees, control of unecessary economic migration, a peaceful co operative middle east, freedom of choice and movement, nationalisation of those communal assets ie railways. Very much an Old Labour programme before you start the kneejerk shouts of 'tory'.

That's right, you yawn, you friggin' troll. The only dogmatic one here is you, Mel.

What's the matter? Do you lack the honesty to admit that you have an agenda and that that agenda is typified by your recent threads? Try taking some responsibility for a change instead of deflecting

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

See my post below. Islamophobia does exist I just disagree with how widespread it is.

My concern is the level of attention given to these issues by the swaps and their front groups is alienating non muslims from the left as a whole.

i sahre cocners that these issues are coopted into a front by sefl publisising groups to push their own agendas however if poster(numbers) were ever to actually research their comments they'd see there's good reason for the SWP and their ilk to be involved...

most of the DA groups in Pal are some varient of socialist communist or anarchist in their leanings.

There is significant money to be made in being an NGO in this area.

To that end a number of NGO's are profitable enough to open secondaries and hire more staff in. On could argue that the role of any NGO is to establish a working culture and then to hand off to the local populace and declare themselves defunct. Thus actually improving the lot of the people they are working for. They don't though as they are like most other things corperate entities which rely on and seek out funding. It is therefore benifical to maintain the status quo in order to continue to seek a near endless pit of cash. Of course this also means when the funding critera changes so do the NGO's priorities....

Non of which helps people on the ground.

If it's perfectly accpetable with in the do good eyes of the west for international companies to exploit these situations to increase their profits break their way into markets places and via contracts then force through benifical legislation in order to monopolise then why wouldn't Poltical groups who opperate under the same prinipals...

I think that you are still not being as forthright in your explaiantion with your comment

My concern is the level of attention given to these issues by the swaps and their front groups is alienating non muslims from the left as a whole.

what you mean is it's alienating Jewish people you know who are put off by it because the are concerned having bought into the hype. that's not the same thing.

please if you are going to attempt to debate this subject stop hiding behind euphamisams and tell it like it is...

 

[KeyboardJockey]

i sahre cocners that these issues are coopted into a front by sefl publisising groups to push their own agendas however if poster(numbers) were ever to actually research their comments they'd see there's good reason for the SWP and their ilk to be involved...

most of the DA groups in Pal are some varient of socialist communist or anarchist in their leanings.

There is significant money to be made in being an NGO in this area.

To that end a number of NGO's are profitable enough to open secondaries and hire more staff in. On could argue that the role of any NGO is to establish a working culture and then to hand off to the local populace and declare themselves defunct. Thus actually improving the lot of the people they are working for. They don't though as they are like most other things corperate entities which rely on and seek out funding. It is therefore benifical to maintain the status quo in order to continue to seek a near endless pit of cash. Of course this also means when the funding critera changes so do the NGO's priorities....

Non of which helps people on the ground.

If it's perfectly accpetable with in the do good eyes of the west for international companies to exploit these situations to increase their profits break their way into markets places and via contracts then force through benifical legislation in order to monopolise then why wouldn't Poltical groups who opperate under the same prinipals...

I think that you are still not being as forthright in your explaiantion with your comment



what you mean is it's alienating Jewish people you know who are put off by it because the are concerned having bought into the hype. that's not the same thing.

please if you are going to attempt to debate this subject stop hiding behind euphamisams and tell it like it is...

I should have been more clear in what I said as regards to 'non muslims' most of the anti muslim sentiment that I've seen stirred up by the swaps abandonment of the working classes in general in favour of a communalist approach to get the vote out haven't been amongst Jews but amongst the general population.

I concur with some of your very good points about NGO's sometimes being more about the money than the end result. Seen it in UK charities as well.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

That's right, you yawn, you friggin' troll. The only dogmatic one here is you, Mel.

What's the matter? Do you lack the honesty to admit that you have an agenda and that that agenda is typified by your recent threads? Try taking some responsibility for a change instead of deflecting

Quit the snidey 'mel' comments. I an others know what you mean. You are trying to smear me with associations to thoughtless Mad Mel one track minded hypernationalistzionism coupled with frothing at the mouth dailymailism. It won't work.

Like I said look back at the recent threads and it concurs with what I said in my earlier post. I'm old labour. Its sad that NL have become so authoritiarian that I'm having to consider vote Tory to get rid of NL slime in a major city. Not a good state of affairs at all is it.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

There was such a place as the British Palestine Mandate but never an independent country called Palestine. Hopefully there will one day be a independent Palestine peacefully living alongside the state of Israel.

The key word here is independant really.

and that is an irrelevant word, or using semantics to justify the actiosn taken since.

there was a palestinian territory back as far as the otterman empire which had been fighting to gain independance havign a commonality of peoples and traditions which were sufficent to claim rights to the land as a seperate nation. This was repeatedly denied to them and was quelled violently as well you know.

The use of the word Independant is a supplimation for the word legitimate neither of which is true through out the entire history of the world. Kosovo wouldn't exist as country if we used this yard stick niether would the Slovakia, Croatia etc etc etc... as they weren't independant countries either.

Niether would ironically Isreal...

so to suggest that Isreal due to some historical context has more legitmacy (which is what you are suggesting) than Palestine as it once existed as an actually independant country rather than one which has been fighting for it's independance since the times of roman occupation... (philistines mentioned in the bible and Torah would be people from palestine named in their own in their own language, even today philistaini is how palestinians reffer to each other).

There is no question the population of the area has greatly increased in terms of Arab immigration into the region from the 1880's onwards and that many of these people aren't indiginious to the land anymore than the Isrealis are however if you ascribe to the sensible viewpoint that your heritage your bleonging to any nation state (if this can ever be considered sensible) is based on the place of your birth or a shared commonality of history then i'm afraid that regional arabs who've moved around the desert in that area for many 100's of years have far more legitimacy than white european settlers who bought up land on the cheap and then attempted to take more than their fair share after being given something by their european pals which wasn't theirs to give...