invisibleplanet
porter des cornes
.
Jews stoned in East End (again)
- Thread starter JHE
- Start date
invisibleplanet
porter des cornes
Ever heard of Yigael Gluckstein ?
SWP/Respect are 'guilty' of many things, but racialising politics is not one of them, and your attempt to fit this violent crime to your own pet political hates is despicable.
the glucksteins are well known to me
i used to talk regularly to one of the (extended ) clan ( a rosenberg ) ..but let me ask you ( and Garfield etc ) again
.. are you saying that in NO way, at all, have the SWP/Respect have USED relegion ( and race or communalism ) in Tower Hamlets and elsewhere?
that they have not made out that wars for resources in afghanistan and iraq are attacks on muslims?
that they have not used the states climate of fear against muslims to further gain support in bengali/pakistani muslim areas?
that they have not used attacks against muslims for this purpose also?
that they have not used the bengali community in TH to try to become a national political force? ( which has since and unsuprisingly collapsed being based on this hypocrisy and dishonesty)
as my good leftist Roman road mate said back when GG got elected " King george has set us back 10 years"
( IP i really think that you need to look at how you are preaching to someone on the ground in this area, when it seems you appear to know little of what has been happenning .. sorry but that is how it looks to me
)p.s you also seem unaware that this discussion ( of communalisation etc ) has been held in Respect/SWP and forms part of the reasons for the split?
you accuse me of being despicable but John Rees himself says
"We believe that the constant adaptation to what are referred to as ‘community leaders’ in Tower Hamlets is lowering the level of politics and making us vulnerable to the attacks and pressures brought on us by New Labour. It is alienating us not only from the white working class but also from the more radical sections of the Bengali community, both secular and Muslim, who feel that Respect is becoming the party of a narrow and conservative trend in the area." http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=746
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
utterly irrlevent you aren't the swp and they aren't attempting to make poltical capital out of this story but you are...
ergo your actions of which you are responsible for are dispicable.
not only that but by deliberatly using ambigouious terms such as the left you hope that you flack will be cuaght by all left leaning groups...turning an attempted attack on one group into a slur on all of them...
so what's your agenda then?
as if it wasn't patently obvious...
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
I'd like to add my two pennorth on the 'left' 'swp' thingy
The SWP have been involved in racialising politics by hitching their political cart to agrrieved muslims in East London. I've seen them do it in Barking with the local STW group I've seen them openly canvassing muslims about attacks both on muslim countries and on muslim individuals (I had contact with Barking STWC so I saw some stuff from the inside I didn't have a political axe to grind I could just see that this war would bethe disaster it turned out to be).
A bloc of people who would actually VOTE for an SWP vehicle must have seemed to the Swaps like they had won the lottery.
By targetting one racial and religous grouping the swp inadvertantly encouraged bnp supporters to become more visible and active on the grounds that and I quote one of them 'the p***s have got their party now we've got ours'.
The swaps exploited the fact that there was a historical bloc vote in certain communities with the Respect vehicle.
As regards the posters comments about the wider 'left' it is important to separate out the shysters of the swp from other left groups.
Where there is crossover in criticism as I see it is where certain individual left groups are still hanging onto - maybe in some cases justifiably in some cases maybe not - mostly outdated identity politics of the 1980s and 1990s. This is percieved by some to represent the whole left which it doesn't. Sometimes groups are louder than their influence. As regards Identity politics I think that it was a practice that had its time but as minorities go more mainstream is less important and many people realise that you can be a member of many different personal identities.
The SWP have been involved in racialising politics by hitching their political cart to agrrieved muslims in East London. I've seen them do it in Barking with the local STW group I've seen them openly canvassing muslims about attacks both on muslim countries and on muslim individuals (I had contact with Barking STWC so I saw some stuff from the inside I didn't have a political axe to grind I could just see that this war would bethe disaster it turned out to be).
A bloc of people who would actually VOTE for an SWP vehicle must have seemed to the Swaps like they had won the lottery.
By targetting one racial and religous grouping the swp inadvertantly encouraged bnp supporters to become more visible and active on the grounds that and I quote one of them 'the p***s have got their party now we've got ours'.
The swaps exploited the fact that there was a historical bloc vote in certain communities with the Respect vehicle.
As regards the posters comments about the wider 'left' it is important to separate out the shysters of the swp from other left groups.
Where there is crossover in criticism as I see it is where certain individual left groups are still hanging onto - maybe in some cases justifiably in some cases maybe not - mostly outdated identity politics of the 1980s and 1990s. This is percieved by some to represent the whole left which it doesn't. Sometimes groups are louder than their influence. As regards Identity politics I think that it was a practice that had its time but as minorities go more mainstream is less important and many people realise that you can be a member of many different personal identities.
invisibleplanet
porter des cornes
Whatever SWP/Respect or any other nominally leftwing group have been doing in Tower Hamlets has absolutely zilch to do with the decision made by youths to throw stones at the tourists participating in the Jewish Heritage of the East End tour.
It's not as though SWP/Respect threw those stones or encouraged anyone to throw stones at tourists, and the diversion of attention to petty local politics is offensive, having nothing to do with this incident.
It's offensive to attempt to offload the blame onto any political group - the responsibility for the stone throwing lies only with the youths who threw the stones and no-one else.
It's not as though SWP/Respect threw those stones or encouraged anyone to throw stones at tourists, and the diversion of attention to petty local politics is offensive, having nothing to do with this incident.
It's offensive to attempt to offload the blame onto any political group - the responsibility for the stone throwing lies only with the youths who threw the stones and no-one else.
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
Agreed that the ultimate responsibility lies with the arseholes who threw stones but the swp might have to bear some responsibility for stoking up the Israel /Palestine issue in the area.
Engaging in politics which is centred on issues of race and religion is dangerous and sometimes have unforseen effects.
invisibleplanet
porter des cornes
Conjecture without foundation, KBJ.
Which is exactly what you're doing - politicising this crime to focus the cause upon national and international issues of race and religion.KBJ said:
so now you accept what i say about TH? after slagging me off so much?????
oops your post was aimed at KBJ
you still did not reply to me 
(and of course what you say in your post here is correct .. who has tried to blame the SWP for this? and tbf it is totally irrelevent to what i have said )
did you read my posts? you are absolutely correct buthave me 180o out .. yes the swp did NOT try to make political capital out of this attack .. and that was actually my point .. as teh would have done if it involved their current target group in the area Bengali muslims
p.s. you are correct re my use of 'the left' .. it is lazy and i do it far too often ..
p.s. my agenda here is to point out that the SWP and some other elements of the liberal left have followed, for differrent political reasons, racial agendas, like Respect in TH, and that imho this is extremely dangerous
IP surely you must see that complaining about this on an internet group is at a massively differrent scale than what Respect/SWP have done nationally in the real world??
surely we have or there is a right to critique and discuss their practice? particularly as both me and KBJ are actually in east london many miles away from where you are based
and as i note both Tony Greenstein ( possibly representative of the non SWP left) and John Rees ( of the SWP) have made strong comments on it as well as discussion within respect that have been reported on these boards ..
so why do you try to quiet us for also doing so?
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
but they didn't try and make political capital out of it regardless of what they are attempting to make polictical capital out of at the moment it's utterly irreleivent to the topic at hand.
You are still attempting to make policitcal captial out of the incident to bash a group (admittidly a fucking usless group) by their inaction which you are attempting to paint as bais.
It's on you really.
and it's not on.
sorry you are missing the point .. that the SWP Respect have USED incidents ike this have USED relegion have USED the bengali muslim community
so to note ( ONLY on a bloody internet group btw!
) that they have ignored this is UTTERLY relevent p.s. you say they are a 'fucking useless group' but what they have done has been damaging and needs criticising
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
I've seen a lot of Respect/SWP literature that gives foundation. They have stirred the shit as much as the bnp have stirred it in their constituency.
The SWP started it!
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
sorry you are missing the point .. that the SWP Respect have USED incidents ike this have USED relegion have USED the bengali muslim community
so to note ( ONLY on a bloody internet group btw!
p.s. you say they are a 'fucking useless group' but what they have done has been damaging and needs criticising
no you mis sthe point the swp haven't used this incident you have.
regardless of what they've done in the past it isn't them now using this incident for poltical captial...
what's so hard to get your mellon round?
really...
It matters not one jot what actions they have previously taken that's not the subject in discussion although you are trying your best to make it that way. the actions takes are a group of asian youths threw stones at american tourists the motivation is unclear and due to the religion of those attacked it's being highlight as a Judeophoic attack.
No where in those facts is there anything to do with the SWP. until you mentioned it...
It's all you whose attempting to twist this into some kind of stick to beat the swp with which smakcs of oppertunism and shows the callious disregard you have to the turn of events...
who cares who they were so say you as long as i can use it as a stick to beat others i disagree with...
stop being a cunt admit you are twisting the facts to suit your agenda and stop doing it.
whatever point you have is now buried in your dispicable behaviour...
What despicable behaviour? Perhaps durruti has a point and perhaps some of RESPECTS actions have given a green light to Judeophobia?
But then again maybe,he is overstating the case. Either way you seem to have gone completely OTT. You state he shows callous disregard for the turn of events. Really? Your 100% sure are you?
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
What despicable behaviour? Perhaps durruti has a point and perhaps some of RESPECTS actions have given a green light to Judeophobia?
But then again maybe,he is overstating the case. Either way you seem to have gone completely OTT. You state he shows callous disregard for the turn of events. Really? Your 100% sure are you?
yes.
he's using the incident as a stcik to beat a political party with which he disagrees with when they have had no involvement with it what so ever.
you might say they should have involvement but then i don't see the same candour being applied to any other poltical party. there was no comment about how other parties failed to speak up.
you might say that due to their history in the area they might wish to highlightt he problem but again this is using the matter as a political football in order to gain some self serving interest. just as duritti is doing here.
there is no complusion on any poltical party to condem or condone this incident. more over using such an incident to bash a party for not doing so just reveals the partisan nature of the person making the comment.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
I've been stoned in the East End many, many times. I've enjoyed each and every occasion too!
garfield you really are missing the point my friend .. you have totally lost me .. of course SWP have nowt to do with this attack ( some have suggested that their involvement in teh area and NOT confronting [ extreme anti semitic ] anti zionism may have but that is too strong for me ) and i have never suggested so .. so i really do not understand where your problem lies .. is it that you disagree with my criticism of the SWP in TH?
my point is simply they played the race card in TH for political gain .. but not when it comes to attacks on jews which in THIS area would serve them NO purpose .. do you agree with their strategy?
Spion
I hear ya
The SWP not confronting anti-zionism? Why would they?
Show us some evidence of anti-semitic attacks in TH and show us that the SWP said nothing. You could then compare that to their pronouncements on other racist attacks and prove your point
lived here and spent many weekends for many years ( many years ago ) not stoned but very very happily ( and not so hapily!) drwunk in the inns of whitechapel and BG .. good sams blind beggar murphysI've been stoned in the East End many, many times. I've enjoyed each and every occasion too!
The SWP not confronting anti-zionism? Why would they?
Show us some evidence of anti-semitic attacks in TH and show us that the SWP said nothing. You could then compare that to their pronouncements on other racist attacks and prove your point
sorry that was an error .. the point is there is a level of anti zionism that has gone over into anti semitism in this area that IF it was in a white area would be called racism and fascism and the SWP would call pickets and demos .. i once posted a thread about an swp stall next to a muslim stall selling holocaust denial CDs .. would you not accept that if this were a non muslim stall selling holocaust denial there would be a differrent reaction from the SWP?
as to this attack i have heard no comment from Respect SWP ( though as it is in melt down maybe they can be excused .. )
but really really do you deny that the SWP have used race and relegion in their respect project???
you claim you are not swp and disagree with them so i do not understand why you are disagreeing with me .. what is it you actually do not accept?
Hi IP you made this statement abput how i was despicable but i clearly showed they have done what i claim .. why did you ignore my answer?
"SWP/Respect are 'guilty' of many things, but racialising politics is not one of them, and your attempt to fit this violent crime to your own pet political hates is despicable." IP
my reply was
".. are you saying that in NO way, at all, have the SWP/Respect have USED relegion ( and race or communalism ) in Tower Hamlets and elsewhere?
that they have not made out that wars for resources in afghanistan and iraq are attacks on muslims?
that they have not used the states climate of fear against muslims to further gain support in bengali/pakistani muslim areas?
that they have not used attacks against muslims for this purpose also?
that they have not used the bengali community in TH to try to become a national political force? ( which has since and unsuprisingly collapsed being based on this hypocrisy and dishonesty)
as my good leftist Roman road mate said back when GG got elected " King george has set us back 10 years"
( IP i really think that you need to look at how you are preaching to someone on the ground in this area, when it seems you appear to know little of what has been happenning .. sorry but that is how it looks to me )
p.s you also seem unaware that this discussion ( of communalisation etc ) has been held in Respect/SWP and forms part of the reasons for the split?
you accuse me of being despicable but John Rees himself says
"We believe that the constant adaptation to what are referred to as ‘community leaders’ in Tower Hamlets is lowering the level of politics and making us vulnerable to the attacks and pressures brought on us by New Labour. It is alienating us not only from the white working class but also from the more radical sections of the Bengali community, both secular and Muslim, who feel that Respect is becoming the party of a narrow and conservative trend in the area." http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=746"
indeed do you call John Rees despicable for what he says?
"SWP/Respect are 'guilty' of many things, but racialising politics is not one of them, and your attempt to fit this violent crime to your own pet political hates is despicable." IP
my reply was
".. are you saying that in NO way, at all, have the SWP/Respect have USED relegion ( and race or communalism ) in Tower Hamlets and elsewhere?
that they have not made out that wars for resources in afghanistan and iraq are attacks on muslims?
that they have not used the states climate of fear against muslims to further gain support in bengali/pakistani muslim areas?
that they have not used attacks against muslims for this purpose also?
that they have not used the bengali community in TH to try to become a national political force? ( which has since and unsuprisingly collapsed being based on this hypocrisy and dishonesty)
as my good leftist Roman road mate said back when GG got elected " King george has set us back 10 years"
( IP i really think that you need to look at how you are preaching to someone on the ground in this area, when it seems you appear to know little of what has been happenning .. sorry but that is how it looks to me )
p.s you also seem unaware that this discussion ( of communalisation etc ) has been held in Respect/SWP and forms part of the reasons for the split?
you accuse me of being despicable but John Rees himself says
"We believe that the constant adaptation to what are referred to as ‘community leaders’ in Tower Hamlets is lowering the level of politics and making us vulnerable to the attacks and pressures brought on us by New Labour. It is alienating us not only from the white working class but also from the more radical sections of the Bengali community, both secular and Muslim, who feel that Respect is becoming the party of a narrow and conservative trend in the area." http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=746"
indeed do you call John Rees despicable for what he says?
Spion
I hear ya
You want me to accept the SWP's reaction to events that haven't happened? It's bizarre, frankly
my friend yes this debate is bizarre as frankly i do not understand why you criticise me ..
tbh i think that you accept the way the SWP/Respect have behaved in TH ..
and i simply suggested that their reaction to an attack by kids as this was would have been USED by them IF it was against a group of which they could have made political capital .. what is it i say you actually disagree withyou disagree with?
p.s. did you note John Rees comments?
Spion
I hear ya
I disagree with your use of an attack to make political capital without regard to the truth of the matter. In this thread you've shown yourself to be as unprincipled as them - only utilising tragic events when they suit you. And worse still, there's no evidence it was anti-semitic in motivation, which reveals a monumental disregard for truth on your part too. All in all, pretty shameful, IMO.and i simply suggested that their reaction to an attack by kids as this was would have been USED by them IF it was against a group of which they could have made political capital .. what is it i say you actually disagree withyou disagree with?
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
and my point is tht you are playing the race card in order to bash the swp in an incident which they have no direct involvement.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Why bother, Garf?
The same thing has been said to him at least a dozen times and he hasn't "got" (or is ignoring) what's being said, what makes you think he'll listen now?
Similar threads
