Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[cantsin]

I knew it was a big risk, but thought it might be possible the - substantial - non-Brexit offer Labour had might break through. It's possible that if the electorate had trusted corbyn to be able to deliver them it might have done. Of course, one of the reasons he wasnt trusted to deliver is because of his vacilations on brexit...

I'm not saying they made the right decision. Just that maybe there wasn't a right decision.

spot on -

 

[butchersapron]

Oh god, what if they turn into a rejoin party. They been half lib-demmed already.

 

[butchersapron]

If we accept - which i don't - that there wasn't a right decision to take, only different wrong ones, why did they take this wrong one?

 

[brogdale]

There is no point rehearsing again our respective view on this. But let me ask you this. In your view what should Labour’s position on Brexit be going forwards. I’m asking here on the basis that it’s irrelevant in parliamentary terms but relevant in terms of the rebuilding job. I accept that this is contingent on who the next leader is. But given the trade negotiations a coherent policy, and way of explaining it, remains important

Important point.
Sounds like that's worthy of its own thread?

 

[cantsin]

If we accept - which i don't - that there wasn't a right decision to take, only different wrong ones, why did they take this wrong one?

understandable / desperate attempt to keep together what was (is ? ) essentially, a coalition

 

[butchersapron]

understandable / desperate attempt to keep together what was (is ? ) after all, a coalition

That's just saying there was no right choice again. Now you know the outcome of that choice are you still so sure? What's the point of this coalition if this is what it brings? Clearly people were aware of this before and chose to placate one side of it. Why?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

understandable / desperate attempt to keep together what was (is ? ) essentially, a coalition

not sure I understand how the 2nd ref position was an attempted coalition building approach? Detaching the scum working class (as Paul Mason openly characterises them) living in smashed places and opting for the shifting remain alliance doesn’t appear coalition building?

 

[treelover]

My thing is that they just went overboard with the offer, thinsg like nationalisation while quite popular, last took a war and a depression to embed in, John Mc, who i adore, seemed to lose it a bit.

This Labour meltdown has been building for decades | Aditya Chakrabortty

Here is Aditya's take, its quite robust.

 

[treelover]

clear the decks, here’s my confession. I never foresaw the scale of this wipeout – and what it spells for our already failing economy, fractured society and battered democracy frankly scares me. Yet the reporting I’ve done – both in this election and before – made malmost sure Labour was going to lose, and in precisely those areas that are all over the front pages. What were called its heartlands, at least until Thursday night. The Bolsovers, the Bishop Aucklands. The un-metropolitan, unfashionable, never-kissed-a-Tory land that would, as the old saw goes, elect a donkey if it wore a red rosette.

And I can say with certainty that this week’s meltdown is the culmination of trends that stretch back decades. They were Corbyn’s poisoned inheritance, not his creation – but any leader who wants to win back those seats will have to deal with them better than he managed.

We need a Labour, what next? thread, lots of members read this here.

 

[tommers]

Removed.

Already done.

 

[brogdale]

We need Labour, what next? thread, lots of members read this here.

PLP gotta make their minds up quick, for a start.
If the WAB comes up next week, their voting reaction will be used by the right to characterise the framing of the next GE.

 

[The39thStep]

I knew it was a big risk, but thought it might be possible the - substantial - non-Brexit offer Labour had might break through. It's possible that if the electorate had trusted corbyn to be able to deliver them it might have done. Of course, one of the reasons he wasnt trusted to deliver is because of his vacilations on brexit...

I'm not saying they made the right decision. Just that maybe there wasn't a right decision.

I admire your honesty here killer and the fact that you've chosen to talk through your view of the process of decision making that led to the decision in effect that potential TIG repercussions were more important than the northern and midlands working class leavers .You're correct in that it wasn't the right decision however if the cards could be played again are you sure they couldnt have been played differently for a better outcome?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

PLP gotta make their minds up quick, for a start.
If the WAB comes up next week, their voting reaction will be used by the right to characterise the framing of the next GE.

They also need to think how they communicate it. Clearly Corbyn needs to be kept away from it given his impending departure.

Surely, if nothing else and given PV is now routed, the line has to indicate the party has got the message?

 

[cantsin]

That's just saying there was no right choice again. Now you know the outcome of that choice are you still so sure? What's the point of this coalition if this is what it brings? Clearly people were aware of this before and chose to placate one side of it. Why?

out CLP has been 60-70 % pro Leave throughout ( 2-3 relevant votes ) , but in in no way using that to interact with our Leave constituency on any wider / official basis ( though we do on the doorsteps - " we're leave , some of us Remain, but Corbo's always been leave, so ... " etc )

going fwd, it's gloves off, for sure

 

[brogdale]

They also need to think how they communicate it. Clearly Corbyn needs to be kept away from it given his impending departure.

Surely, if nothing else and given PV is now routed, the line has to indicate the party has got the message?

I really am gobsmacked that Corbyn didn't just stand down on Friday am.
His lingering presence merely complicates everything.

 

[cantsin]

not sure I understand how the 2nd ref position was an attempted coalition building approach? Detaching the scum working class (as Paul Mason openly characterises them) living in smashed places and opting for the shifting remain alliance doesn’t appear coalition building?

agreed, total f*ck up accepting 2nd ref really ...but the Parliamentary dead lock alone seemed to push inexorably towards that, and unfortunately, we are still playing the Parli game here

 

[treelover]

In the 2017 election I wrote that a party that grew out of social institutions needed to turn itself into a social institution in precisely those areas it historically took for granted. That remains the key task: providing advice to those whose benefits are being slashed, legal support to tenants under the cosh from their landlords, haggling with the utilities to provide cheaper and better deals. Add to that: teaching political and economic literacy to voters, not just activists, and consulting constituents on what issues Labour should be battling on

this is what Wilf, BA, myself and lots of others have been saying

 

[Pickman's model]

I really am gobsmacked that Corbyn didn't just stand down on Friday am.
His lingering presence merely complicates everything.

Who would stand up as interim leader being as there is AFAIK no deputy atm?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I really am gobsmacked that Corbyn didn't just stand down on Friday am.
His lingering presence merely complicates everything.

He probably should have handed over to McDonnell and let him manage the leader/deputy elections. But given he hasn’t he can’t surely be who the LP put forward to lead the debate on the Bill which I understand Johnson will bring forward need week

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

If we accept - which i don't - that there wasn't a right decision to take

So - in simple terms - what would have been the right one to take? All I can see was a multitude of bad options. They were snookered from the start, no?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Who would stand up as interim leader being as there is AFAIK no deputy atm?

McDonnell

 

[treelover]

out CLP has been 60-70 % pro Leave throughout ( 2-3 relevant votes ) , but in in no way using that to interact with our Leave constituency on any wider / official basis ( though we do on the doorsteps - " we're leave , some of us Remain, but Corbo's always been leave, so ... " etc )

going fwd, it's gloves off, for sure

Gloves off, attacking the Tories, good, but what about the councils, jailing people for non council tax payments, etc.

 

[Pickman's model]

this is what Wilf, BA, myself and lots of others have been saying

Have you ever noticed how Labour councils often act more harshly against eg Council tax defaulters than tory ones? I don't think Labour could have operated as you suggest, their local activities often run counter to the national message they try to promote

 

[Smokeandsteam]

agreed, total f*ck up accepting 2nd ref really ...but the Parliamentary dead lock alone seemed to push inexorably towards that, and unfortunately, we are still playing the Parli game here

The obsession with the Parliamentary process and the euro elections were the key factors agreed.

But I still don’t accept their explanation that it was a ‘compromise’ or coalition attempt. It plainly wasn’t

 

[brogdale]

He probably should have handed over to McDonnell and let him manage the leader/deputy elections. But given he hasn’t he can’t surely be who the LP put forward to lead the debate on the Bill which I understand Johnson will bring forward need week

I'm just trying to imagine the complete shitshow they're just going to make of this.

 

[treelover]

exactly, our leader Julie Dore, is horrendous

 

[Pickman's model]

McDonnell

I suspect he'd pass

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I suspect he'd pass

Maybe. But given he will also be going he’d be a broker for their attempt to maintain corbynism without Corbyn

 

[treelover]

bloke who did 120 hours on the door step and his thoughts.
seems a bit the world transformed approach, wwc racist, etc.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I'm just trying to imagine the complete shitshow they're just going to make of this.

I’m sure Keir Starmer is turning his massive strategic brain, and embedded working class instincts, towards this as we type