greenfield
Former lurker
Do you think that is what her 'recent behaviour' is about? Trying to make 'the world' or the Labour Party look more favourably on Israel?
Jeremy Corbyn's time is up
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Do you think that is what her 'recent behaviour' is about? Trying to make 'the world' or the Labour Party look more favourably on Israel?
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
I'm not arguing that they are comparable, I'm arguing that how, and when, Israel was formed and who lost out is irrelevant to the truth or otherwise of her statement that Israel is a safe place for Jews to live.
What other statements about Israel do you think need to be prefaced with some note about how it came into being in order to complete their truthfullness - that it's hot in the summer? That they grow oranges? That there's some interesting Roman Archeology?
The experiences of the Palestinian population simply isn't relevant to the statement that Israel is a safe place for Jews to live - it would be relevant to a statement about whether it was a safe place for Palestinians to live, but that wasn't the statement she made...
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
So why post up what happened post world war two between Poland and Germany?
I have re read your original post and you are comparing what happened between Germany and Poland at end of WW2 with Israel.
You do agree that founding of Israel State at end of British Mandate was done by expelling the Palestinian Arabs is historical fact?
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Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I don't agree with this. History is important. Hodge herself in the article I linked to starts the first section with her own personal history as a Jew.
Which I found interesting and made me understand where she was coming from.
Ive started watching YouTube lecture by Jewish historian Pappe on Israel. What comes across so far is he is saying the opposite of what you are saying. He is saying the how and when and who lost in the formation of Israel is important.
bimble
floofy
No, I think that doesn’t make any sense, was just answering Gramsci who was saying that’s what he thinks it’s about.
I honestly don't get how anyone could look at her overblown hyperbolic behaviour and think its part of a pre-planned cynical effort to achieve a political goal (shift the party back to the right or make people like Israel or whatever).I mean if it is she's done a massive own goal hasn't she.
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The idea that grown up women who know what they're doing can't be motivated by traumatic events from the recent past is a strange one.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
You're not in a position to make that statement. Trans generational trauma is a well documented phenomenon, not something we made up to let Margaret Hodge off the hook.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Being as she's played a part in shifting the party to the right before it would be foolish to think she might not do it again
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
Well overblown, hyperbolic, cynical and a massive own goal would be consistent with plenty of the Labour Right's behaviour since Corbyn got elected. Obviously that doesn't in itself mean that's what she's doing here but it's part of the background to all this stuff.
Treacle Toes
Time
In theory maybe. In practice though?
I don't know anyone who given what we know about the Israeli state and it's methods in creating this so called 'safe place' separates the two ideas because it includes the widespread persecution and expulsion of Palestinian people fro m their homelands. To many, they are absolutely parts of same story.
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Does this mean we are ALL influenced by traumatic events from our individual (or collective) pasts?
Please forgive me if I don't engage in psycho-babble at this time of the morning.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Don't know what you're doing on urban with that sort of attitude
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andysays
Love and solidarity
'new' might turn out to be more accurate...
greenfield
Former lurker
Poor Margaret Hodge! It must be collective trauma that makes her do this! She doesn't need to be called out on her politics. Certainly deselection would traumatise her even more
She needs counselling. And anyone who says different needs to shut up a d stop being horrid!
She needs counselling. And anyone who says different needs to shut up a d stop being horrid!
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Yes and once you realise this human history and politics starts to make a lot more sense, as well as the behaviour of individuals.
Many states and governments, Israel not least among them, deliberately manipulate the collective trauma of their people for political ends. This is one way that ethnic and sectarian conflicts can be prolonged on a generational timescale.
It's an established fact even in secondary school history lessons that the trauma of the first world war was a major factor in dragging the next generation into the second.
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bimble
floofy
I don't get how people can think its fine to openly laugh at the idea that jews (particularly European ones) might be a bit messed up because of what the nazis did to their families. Sod Hodge but if you don't see this you're missing out on a major bit of the whole story of why we are so 'oversensitive' about antisemitism, as well as why israel has turned out as fucked as it is, imo. Like frank says.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
er it's an established belief. if what you're saying is true the japanese must have been particularly traumatised, to get started so much earlier than everybody else, while the brazilians can hardly have been traumatised at all being how they joined the war so late.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Hence the phrase a factor.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i am taking issue not with your factor but with your fact. the fourth word in your first sentence.
Stephen Bush's latest has a lot of interesting detail - I remain unconvinced of the likelihood of a split, but it's a useful peek into what the Labour right are saying to him at least.
Leaving Labour: why a party split is now inevitable
Leaving Labour: why a party split is now inevitable
oryx
Sitting on the bok of the day
Interesting article, thanks for the link.
It's my view that some MPs are so out of step with the Labour Party leadership and membership that the only resolution to the situation is deselection.
ETA - I don't see a split as inevitable.
I think if they manage to change the rules re: deselection in September (not sure if that's actually on the cards although there's been a lot of shouting about it lately) then the likelihood of a split increases markedly. Indeed, I suspect the reason there hasn't been any significant push for it in the past - as well as previously lacking the numbers) is because of this.
oryx
Sitting on the bok of the day
Bush seems to think the deselection thing is going to happen - will be interesting to see what happens.
I will have no sympathy for MPs who get deselected. But there will be a lot of nauseating outrage from the Labour right if it even passes, never mind gets activated.
Then yes, a split does become far more likely.
Interesting what Bush said about Labour's right wing being discouraged by the history of the SDP yet encouraged by En Marche in France.
I wonder if there is an appetite for a 'centrist' party. You do read and hear stuff about it. I tend to think that any party like that is doomed because of Brexit.
Given the type of people likely to be running it they will be ardently pro-Remain. In their deluded little middle class bubble they think this will be hugely popular. It won't. People have become more entrenched since the referendum and moves to remain without addressing the issues behind the Leave vote will go down like a cup of cold sick
with a lot of people.So if the potential for a 'centrist' party wasn't limited already, it's limited even more by the Brexit situation.
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