Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[SpookyFrank]

I think you're wrong here. She doesn't work for Corbyn. She's was first elected for Labour in the early 70s so she's been a member for 40+ years. She has every right to not be run out of the party by anti-Semites (as she and others would see it)

If I was a member of Labour for decades, and if I was Jewish, and I thought the leader of the party were an anti-semite I wouldn't just walk sway; I'd stay and fight to reclaim it

Would you not want to see some evidence that he was an anti-semite first though? Because the world and his mum are falling over themselves to find that evidence and thus far, nothing but horse shit.

 

[Beermoth]

I understand - besides anything else - that sensitivities have been running high re: anti-semitism these last few months. But I just don't understand how Hodge, given what she said, could actually want to stay in the party. It reads as very extreme to me - to have something that's upsetting but pretty small beer (threat of suspension) triggering off something so horrendous to her. I don't get why you'd continue to put yourself in that situation. I mean, people were using the term 'batshit' a few pages ago. It's not just me.

 

[killer b]

Why do you keep writing the same post?

 

[Beermoth]

Also, Hodge did cover up child abuse btw.

Not a nice woman. Wouldn't want her as yer granny

Timeline: Margaret Hodge row

 

[Beermoth]

Why do you keep writing the same post?

Cos people keep handwaving it away possibly?

 

[killer b]

I can't decide if you're thick or taking the piss

 

[binka]

Would you not want to see some evidence that he was an anti-semite first though? Because the world and his mum are falling over themselves to find that evidence and thus far, nothing but horse shit.

The point I was making was that if Hodge thinks Corbyn is an anti-semite why does that mean she should leave the party she's been a member of for nearly five decades

 

[binka]

Also, Hodge did cover up child abuse btw.

Not a nice woman. Wouldn't want her as yer granny

Timeline: Margaret Hodge row

I don't think anyone here remotely likes Margaret Hodge

 

[Beermoth]

.

 

[Wilf]

She's jewish and she's willingly working with someone who she thinks is anti-semitic. No-one is forcing her. Why is she doing this?

Pretty much like the socialist Jeremy Corbyn remained in the party of the anti socialist Tony Blair. No one forced him. Why did he do that?

edit: ah, beaten to it by killer b 3 hours ago.

 

[Wilf]

I understand - besides anything else - that sensitivities have been running high re: anti-semitism these last few months. But I just don't understand how Hodge, given what she said, could actually want to stay in the party. It reads as very extreme to me - to have something that's upsetting but pretty small beer (threat of suspension) triggering off something so horrendous to her. I don't get why you'd continue to put yourself in that situation. I mean, people were using the term 'batshit' a few pages ago. It's not just me.

I don't like Hodge, she's just about the worst sort of Labour right winger. I also wouldn't go quite as far as killer b and the New Statesman article in terms of the suggestion we are misreading what she said. Personally, I think there's a clear strand of (anti-corbyn) politics as usual in her comments - undoubtedly combined with deepseated familial and communal trauma. There's something we all do going on here, the interweaving of the real, the genuine and the personal with something else. Crucially, that means she's not 'lying', she's just being a normal human being in a tight corner.

But as to her leaving the Labour Party almost as a first step - that's wildly illogical. Surely if she thinks Corbyn is anti-semitic she should create a big stink for him, even more so if that aligns with her own political perspective? 6 months on and Corbyn is flinging wreaths on similar graves - or more seriously if the Party does nothing on anti-Semitism - that's the time to go. Anyway, whatever you think of her motives, she's acting like any normal dissenter in a political organisation would.

 

[Gramsci]

This is what is making me so sad Gramsci .
I know you a bit in real life, we've been working on the same local thing for a long time and met today, you're my neighbour and i hope my friend and ally, and i respect you massively for the voluntary work you do after a week of long hours hard graft. And yet on this it feels like we probably can't ever understand each other. It makes me feel really sad lonely and a bit scared. By

You think she is an angry Zionist (and or Blairite) shouting antisemitism in order to get rid of Corbyn for her own political ends, or because she wants to crush the voices of those fighting for justice for Palestinians.

I don't give a shit about her (and I think Israel is completely fucked up and currently run by racists, saying that because it needs to be said every time) but your opinion that the woman is lying / acting is the thing.
JC himself has said that there is a real problem, and that people who deny this do not speak for him. I just don't know, the divisions in our current situation in this country feel really painful and i wish i could see a way out of it all but can't. Sorry i didn't bring tea like i said i would today.

I'm not saying she is lying or acting. Im also not saying she is a bit mad. Ive already posted that up.

Its also why I looked up history of Labour party and Israel. I can see that the Labour party she joined was traditionally pro Israel. This is what she wants a return to.

 

[JimW]

Beermoth I think part of your problem is thinking Hodge and Corbyn are in a boss/subordinate relationship like some job when as binka's pointed out, he's just temporarily the leader of a movement she's been in the best part of her life.

 

[bimble]

I'm not saying she is lying or acting. Im also not saying she is a bit mad. Ive already posted that up.

Its also why I looked up history of Labour party and Israel. I can see that the Labour party she joined was traditionally pro Israel. This is what she wants a return to.

She might wish that the Labour Party & world in general still looked at Israel as they did 50+ years ago but she'd have to be properly mad if she reckoned her recent behaviour would somehow help make that happen.

 

[cantsin]

Is this correct, or a bit like the woman who at Stoke said that JC had won the Nobel Peace Prize.

maybe time to have a little think where you are with all this eh

 

[SpookyFrank]

Beermoth I think part of your problem is thinking Hodge and Corbyn are in a boss/subordinate relationship like some job when as binka's pointed out, he's just temporarily the leader of a movement she's been in the best part of her life.

It's also unlike other jobs in that you're supposed to act in the interests of the general public, not just yourself or your organisation.

 

[killer b]

Erm that's bollocks, loads of jobs involve acting in the interests of the general public.

Let's just drop the whole comparisons with a normal job thing altogether, however you try to squeeze it in it looks like rubbish.

 

[bimble]

Adam Wagner's latest thread on this is worth reading in full btw.

This was good to read. Very much how I feel (personal stuff: two of my grandparents survived concentration camps, one never spoke of it the other told me in detail repeatedly as a small child). Have done a bit of reading over the years about intergenerational trauma and all that and it is a real thing. Have seen a few people trying to write about this the last couple of days but that thread does a very good job and without being defensive.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Let's just drop the whole comparisons with a normal job thing altogether, however you try to squeeze it in it looks like rubbish.

No. It's relevant. It's relevant because the labour right are playing office intrigue at the expense of actual politics. And that's relevant because while they're doing it the tories are killing people.

 

[killer b]

It's been interesting seeing the journalists immediately level accusations of antisemitism against anyone raising the subject of Margaret Hodge's daughter being a senior BBC journalist today btw - the intergenerational revolving door between politics and the media is so natural to them that the only reason they can imagine for anyone to object to it is racism.

 

[J Ed]

It's been interesting seeing the journalists immediately level accusations of antisemitism against anyone raising the subject of Margaret Hodge's daughter being a senior BBC journalist today btw - the intergenerational revolving door between politics and the media is so natural to them that the only reason they can imagine for anyone to object to it is racism.

Identity, when it is available to a person, is just a go to way of framing any defence or attack now. It has become particularly instinctive to politicians and journalists across the political spectrum.

 

[alsoknownas]

Adam Wagner's latest thread on this is worth reading in full btw.

Certainly worth reading because it does a good job of voicing the underlying anxiety and dread that attacks (ideological and physical) have on members of jewish communities worldwide, in the historical shadow of the Holocaust. But not, IMO, worthy of swallowing whole because it contains it's own base platform of bias and self-justification.

Calling today's Israel a 'safe haven' - a nation where many of it's own rightful citizens are not even allowed to set foot, and where many who remain are denied the basic rights of citizenship, is beyond wilful myopia - it's an act of deliberate exclusion; actually it's an act of racism. There's nothing in that thread that indicates an acknowledgement of the sustained oppression taking place in the occupied territories (beyond a vague acknowledgement of 'complexities').

Corbyn has indeed *taken a side*, and it's the right side, even if sometimes it's put him in proximity to the 'wrong' people. His platforming and rubbing shoulders (and wreaths) with men of violence does him no favours, but I find it most hypocritical that you can openly profess support for the murderous Israeli state with impunity in the same context.

 

[killer b]

Nothing is worthy of swallowing whole. Everything is contextual, and subject to the writers, and our own biases.

I disagree with Wagner about a lot of things, but he is always worth reading regardless - partly because he recognises this and makes some attempt to address it. I'm not that interested in calling out everything I disagree with in his posts though, as frankly it's fucking boring. Take away the good stuff.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Just fucking leave it. The graves wreath thing is no longer about whether its true or not its just a measure of what internet cul de sac you hang out in.

eta: the evidence is clear, far as i can tell, not that i think it matters much. If he'd just said oh, I didn't know, was just going along with it, sorry ye widows of the olympics 40 years ago, that was a mistake, it would have been fine. instead this shitshow.

Just seen this. You what?

Stop telling me/others what we can and can't talk about or think.

Evidence? I imagine your evidence will indeed reveal which 'cul de sac' of the internet you hang out in. Post it up.

 

[Gramsci]

She might wish that the Labour Party & world in general still looked at Israel as they did 50+ years ago but she'd have to be properly mad if she reckoned her recent behaviour would somehow help make that happen.

If you read the whole article I posted up. Which was written by member of Progress, not a lefty out to discredit MPs like Hodge,Labour party support for State of Israel has been pretty consistent. Its ingrained into Labour party until recently.

This is a fact.

I don't think Hodge is mad. She thinks getting rid of Corbyn will change party back to its roots as party that supported Zionism. Of a socialist secular variety of it.

I read this by her. Haven't posted it up before as found it somewhat rambling and contradictory.

Take this:

. There have always been those who see every Jew as a paid-up member of the Netanyahu fan club. People who fail to make the appropriate distinction between being a Jew, voicing support for Israel as a place for Jews to live safely and proclaiming support for the Government in Israel. People who now consider the term Zionist as a term of abuse. People who deny the holocaust and people who simply hate Jews. But something has changed in the last couple of years and anti-Semitism has gained a new, misplaced and dangerous legitimacy on the left.

Her saying Israel is a safe place for jews to live in neglects the historical fact that the Israel state was founded on expulsion of the Palestinian Arabs. There is imo no way to get around this as a historical fact.


Margaret Hodge » Blog Archive » Anti-Semitism is making me feel an outsider in the Labour Party

 

[bimble]

Just seen this. You what?

Stop telling me/others what we can and can't talk about or think.

Evidence? I imagine your evidence will indeed reveal which 'cul de sac' of the internet you hang out in. Post it up.

I think the whole wreath thing is ridiculous. If you’re interested have a look online about it it’s all there but what do you think JC was talking about when he said he was “present but not involved”?

 

[Treacle Toes]

I think the whole wreath thing is ridiculous. If you’re interested have a look online about it it’s all there but what do you think JC was talking about when he said he was “present but not involved”?

No. You said you have evidence. It is indeed ridiculous but you have evidence? Post it up and stop telling others what they can and can't refer to on this thread. What cul de sac of the internet do you get your info from? Not that I actually want to know but you keep making these kind of loaded, sneery comments about others so why not put your own cards on the table?

 

[kebabking]

...Her saying Israel is a safe place for jews to live in neglects the historical fact that the Israel state was founded on expulsion of the Palestinian Arabs. There is imo no way to get around this as a historical fact...

I don't see the relevance, whether or not Israel is a safe place for Jews to live isn't determined by who used to live there and why/how they left - you're trying to argue that Western Poland isn't a safe place for Poles to live because it was all in Germany 70-odd years ago.

It might be a historical fact, but it's not relevant to whether Israel is a safe place for Jews to live.

 

[greenfield]

Hodge isn't mad. Neither is she inter-generationally traumatised by what happened in WW2. She's a grown up woman and she knows what she's doing ffs. She's using her identity as a Jew to try and get rid of Corbyn because he is a socialist and she's not. She knows she can't argue to get rid of him on the basis of his politics with the current Labour membership so she's trying a hatchet job on him and using her family background as political capital. She tried to provoke him by swearing at him and it didn't work, so she's trying this.

It's manipulative bullying.

It's right wing manuvering masquerading a victim identity politics.

 

[Gramsci]

I don't see the relevance, whether or not Israel is a safe place for Jews to live isn't determined by who used to live there and why/how they left - you're trying to argue that Western Poland isn't a safe place for Poles to live because it was all in Germany 70-odd years ago.

It might be a historical fact, but it's not relevant to whether Israel is a safe place for Jews to live.

If I get my history right with the fall of Berlin Wall / Communism Poland and Germany came to agreement to recognise each others borders.

German–Polish Border Treaty (1990) - Wikipedia

Your comparison betweentween borders set post WW2 in Europe and what happened in Palestine aren't comparable.