Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[teqniq]

and that code of behaviour covers discussion about a mural?

if I'd said 'the ruling class'?

the boundaries of what can be considered acceptable and what can't are so much more nuanced on this very specific area of politics tahn any other. that's the point I was trying to make.

Speaking of those that consider themselves the 'ruling class' it seems there is never nearly as much furore when they get dressed up in nazi uniforms at some fancy dress do. Why is that i wonder?

 

[newbie]

I suspect we're going to end up talking about how to interpret nose size or if Jewish bankers really do rule the World. So here is the standard, fill your boots:

English (English) | European Forum on Antisemitism

I hope not. Nothing in there covers the mural case, nor Livingstone, nor most accusations of LP anti-semitism. That's the problem with proposing 'red lines'.

 

[Pickman's model]

Speaking of those that consider themselves the 'ruling class' it seems there is never nearly as much furore when they get dressed up in nazi uniforms at some fancy dress do. Why is that i wonder?

not a nazi uniform in sight.

 

[bemused]

I hope not. Nothing in there covers the mural case, nor Livingstone, nor most accusations of LP anti-semitism. That's the problem with proposing 'red lines'.

Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.

 

[newbie]

Rule based organisations surely are.

Corbyn and Livingstone both fail a notional 'don't be a dick' rule. On this issue, how could you draw up rules that are much more specific than that?

 

[butchersapron]

Corbyn and Livingstone both fail a notional 'don't be a dick' rule. On this issue, how could you draw up rules that are much more specific than that?

No you're actually right. There are no possible membership rules that could ever be put in place to govern any organisations and no historical examples of them ever. That's why livingstone hasn't been suspended from the party. Another bizarre claim.

 

[butchersapron]

The idea that because one single example may not be black and white then black and white no longer exist is beyond absurd.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

How much of the problem is actually addressable as a party matter though?

Some of it seems to me to be much more about the wider conspiraloon milieu, about processes of cultural production beyond the reach of Labour Party discipline.

As it's an extremely accessible milieu to which those alienated by the neo-liberal consensus are naturally going to be drawn, there's a fairly reasonable chance anyone attracted to Labour by the 'Corbyn effect' could be a carrier for stuff like anti-Semitism.

I mean I get that there's disciplinary Labour can do to practice hygiene as it were, but realistically you're going to have a continuous stream of re-infection while there's any hope of electoral success.

 

[newbie]

Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.

'making' being the operative word. Corbyn did not 'make'. Had he done so his breach of those guidelines would be clear.

Because it's not clear it's a political question as to whether or not what he did was a problem.

Can anyone draw up a rulebook which covers all possibilities on this very specific issue? I don't think so. 'Bringing the LP into disrepute' or 'don't be a dick' is a sufficient redline, surely?

 

[agricola]

How much of the problem is actually addressable as a party matter though?

Some of it seems to me to be much more about the wider conspiraloon milieu, about processes of cultural production beyond the reach of Labour Party discipline.

As it's an extremely accessible milieu to which those alienated by the neo-liberal consensus are naturally going to be drawn, there's a fairly reasonable chance anyone attracted to Labour by the 'Corbyn effect' could be a carrier for stuff like anti-Semitism.

I mean I get that there's disciplinary Labour can do to practice hygiene as it were, but realistically you're going to have a continuous stream of re-infection while there's any hope of electoral success.

As a party matter it would probably be quite easy to deal with - have some system of recognizing it, then (assuming it isnt blatantly obvious what people are saying) educate the people doing it as to what it represents, then suspend / boot them it they keep doing it.

 

[newbie]

The idea that because one single example may not be black and white then black and white no longer exist is beyond absurd.

so you draw up a rule that covers the mural- leave aside Corbyns comment on it- just make a rule that makes it crystal clear that the actual mural, as an artwork, fails a test which another artwork about the workers supporting the rich could pass.

 

[bemused]

'making' being the operative word. Corbyn did not 'make'. Had he done so his breach of those guidelines would be clear.

Because it's not clear it's a political question as to whether or not what he did was a problem.

Can anyone draw up a rulebook which covers all possibilities on this very specific issue? I don't think so. 'Bringing the LP into disrepute' or 'don't be a dick' is a sufficient redline, surely?

I guess art is subjective.

I look at a picture of old big nosed Jewish bankers playing monopoly on the backs of people in front of pyramid with an eye on it and think 'hmmm that's pretty racist' (I assume someone will point out Jews are a race in a moment) and would choose not to support the chap who painted it.

Others think it looks like some old mates down the local community centre attending Friday afternoon boardgames.

 

[newbie]

I guess art is subjective.

I look at a picture of old big nosed Jewish bankers playing monopoly on the backs of people in front of pyramid with an eye on it and think 'hmmm that's pretty racist' (I assume someone will point out Jews are a race in a moment) and would choose not to support the chap who painted it.

Others think it looks like some old mates down the local community centre attending Friday afternoon boardgames.

yes I get that. Iit's the subjectivity that's not amenable to rules imo.

I'm taking issue with the notion of the LP drawing up specific rules, not with whether or not this mural is anti-semitic or whether Corbyn should have commented on it.

 

[bemused]

I'm taking issue with the notion of the LP drawing up specific rules[..]

Do you think they shouldn't have any rules around acceptable behaviour in relation to race, religion and sex?

 

[DotCommunist]

How tone deaf do you have to be not to clock that, if not 100% for what it is, but certainly as some form of weirdness. The table of backs.. That does not look like old boys playing at the pub, its tonally wrong for anything like a dogs-playing-cards whimsy.

 

[butchersapron]

so you draw up a rule that covers the mural- leave aside Corbyns comment on it- just make a rule that makes it crystal clear that the actual mural, as an artwork, fails a test which another artwork about the workers supporting the rich could pass.

One of my rules on here is not to argue with you when you do stuff like this

 

[Pickman's model]

I guess art is subjective.

I look at a picture of old big nosed Jewish bankers playing monopoly on the backs of people in front of pyramid with an eye on it and think 'hmmm that's pretty racist' (I assume someone will point out Jews are a race in a moment) and would choose not to support the chap who painted it.

Others think it looks like some old mates down the local community centre attending Friday afternoon boardgames.

strange table

 

[not-bono-ever]

Art is usually about placement, or at least, it should be considered.

Where was this fucking awful daub located and why would that location be apt for an anti semitic piece ? has anything ever happened in that area that could make this subject matter more significant ?

both the subject matter and the location may totes harmless and misconstrued obvs.

 

[DotCommunist]

Where was this fucking awful daub located

rahman had it took down so tower hamlets london, one presumes.

 

[newbie]

Do you think they shouldn't have any rules around acceptable behaviour in relation to race, religion and sex?

they do, don't they. Those rules were enough to get Livingstone. I see no purpose in more rules, which was the call.

 

[not-bono-ever]

.

 

[bemused]

they do, don't they. Those rules were enough to get Livingstone. I see no purpose in more rules, which was the call.

Ken Livingstone is still in the party, he's just suspended. Think about that for a little while.

 

[not-bono-ever]

rahman had it took down so tower hamlets london, one presumes.

Yep brick lane - slap bang in the heart of what was diaspora central until (relatively) recently

 

[andysays]

Yep brick lane - slap bang in the heart of what was diaspora central until (relatively) recently

TBH, I can't think of any location or context where this mural would be acceptable.

Not sure what point you're making here.

 

[newbie]

Ken Livingstone is still in the party, he's just suspended. Think about that for a little while.

more rules would change that? Can you draw them up so it's clear what you're looking for?

 

[bemused]

more rules would change that? Can you draw them up so it's clear what you're looking for?

You want me to draw up a rules that defines what discrimination against Jews looks like?

 

[not-bono-ever]

TBH, I can't think of any location or context where this mural would be acceptable.

Not sure what point you're making here.

oh well.

 

[killer b]

they do, don't they. Those rules were enough to get Livingstone. I see no purpose in more rules, which was the call.

I don't think more rules are necessary tbh - the red lines I was talking of are conceptual: I think the leadership has to be clearer about what the problem is, and more vigorous in it's tackling of it. I don't necessarily think this requires more rules (although I'm no expert on what the rules are so maybe they could do with a tweak).

 

[andysays]

You want me to draw up a rules that defines what discrimination against Jews looks like?

It's not just about drawing up rules, it's also about having the political will to enforce them.

As has repeatedly been said, that will has been lacking and anti semitism has been tolerated or ignored when it has appeared convenient.

 

[andysays]

oh well.

I'm not having a pop, I'm trying to understand