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Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

The one i think you're referring to that i posted was Thatcher’s Children, Blair’s Babies, political socialisation and trickle-down value-change:
An age, period and cohort analysis. The findings being that the start point for age-based right-moving now appear significantly further to the right thabn those who grew up pre-79.
This paper (the first 12 pages at least) is interesting, and I will finish reading it. It seems to me, however, that it is so far assuming that a more conservative youth has arisen because of a more conservative government rather than both actually being a consequence of the same more conservative parents. It's the old question -- is the pervading culture driving the attitudes, or are the attitudes driving the culture?

In particular, Thatcherism didn't appear from nowhere. It came about after a systematic (and in many cases intentional) commodification of society and the self from the early 1970s onwards. I would have thought that had a big part to play in the consumer-generation of the 1980s, as well as paving the way for the acceptability of Thatcher's policies.
 
Capitalism is other people's money, though. Made rich on the backs of the workers.

Nonsense. Try getting a bank to loan you money if you don't already have assets that they can use as collateral.

believing (or deciding to believe) in the supremacy of accumulated wisdom in the form of existing social institutions. And then from conservatism to Conservatism, so to speak.

It is the existing social institutions that have allowed the individual to create wealth, so it's no wonder that they support the Conservatives. If the system is not broke, why fix it? The allure of Socialism to those with few assets is obvious. It offers them a means to indirectly gain from the achievements of others. A morally indecent way of thinking, but understandably alluring to the less scrupulous amongst us.

As society becomes more divided and the "have-nots" part of that divide become ever more numerous

Over the past century or two, capitalism has been a massive success. There are less have-nots than ever before, with people from all over the world wanting to enjoy the benefits of living in the UK. When I was a kid, in the Northern town where I was born, only one family in our street owned a car. We felt "rich" because my Dad owned a delivery van. Now, when I go back, you can't get parking there. But you'll hear the usual whiners and moaners complaining how bad it is in the UK, meanwhile back at home they have an HD TV, a car and go on holiday to Spain etc.

The people who really need help are the genuinely needy and the struggling elderly people, who we are not giving enough aid to because far too much of the Welfare budget is being spent on those with a mentality of entitlement who take advantage of the system, both legally and illegally.
 
Nonsense. Try getting a bank to loan you money if you don't already have assets that they can use as collateral.

It is the existing social institutions that have allowed the individual to create wealth, so it's no wonder that they support the Conservatives. If the system is not broke, why fix it? The allure of Socialism to those with few assets is obvious. It offers them a means to indirectly gain from the achievements of others. A morally indecent way of thinking, but understandably alluring to the less scrupulous amongst us.

Banks getting rich with other people's money. With repossessions. That's morally indecent to me.

And the massive success of capitalism you speak of? Sure; if you're the bankers,the coportations, the elite. But not for the majority of people. The marginalised, the poor, the victims of rampant capitalism.
 
Banks getting rich with other people's money. With repossessions. That's morally indecent to me.

Maybe you would like to enlighten us on how banks profit from repossessions? Doesn't excess funds from a sale go to the home owner? They usually either break-even or lose money when they repossess a property. They would surely prefer to keep charging the homeowner interest for many years, rather than this income stream be terminated.

I have shares in several banks and they appear to make their profits from charging interest on loans and from service charges etc.
 
Maybe you would like to enlighten us on how banks profit from repossessions? Doesn't excess funds from a sale go to the home owner? They usually either break-even or lose money when they repossess a property. They would surely prefer to keep charging the homeowner interest for many years, rather than this income stream be terminated.

I have shares in several banks and they appear to make their profits from charging interest on loans and from service charges etc.

Ok, you're the expert on banks. They are actually doing the homeowner a favour? The banks are a necessary evil, is that correct.

As for your shares; is it important for you to flaunt your wealth even if it is just to illustrate your point?
 
Nonsense. Try getting a bank to loan you money if you don't already have assets that they can use as collateral.

Try having assets inherited down the generations from the seizure of public land or resources and using those assets to manipulate less fortunate people into working for less than they are worth so that you can maintain a lifestyle that you couldn't personally support, and then telling everyone that wanting to control the fruits of their labour is socialist "spending other people's money"
 
Over the past century or two, capitalism has been a massive success.
Well, there are at least three points there.

Firstly, even if we take your statement at face value, there is an inherent fallacy in thinking that a system’s historical success necessarily means it is fit for future purpose. Capitalism is not the first economic system this country has had and it was successful under its other systems too, but they would not be successful today because times change.

Any system has limitations and inherent constraints. Under certain circumstances, those constraints are not binding. Under others, they are. Capitalism is running up against some serious constraints right now that it looks particularly ill-equipped to deal with. There are two embedded assumptions that are beginning to fail in particular.

Firstly, the whole basis of capitalism is that of the concept of return on capital. Return on capital requirements are such that companies can’t just maintain steady profits, they need to show growth. But growth runs out at both local and global levels — local because once you have expanded a market, dominated it and then cut costs there is nowhere left to go and global because once you have reached crisis point on your use of resources, further growth becomes extremely detrimental. This is a crisis of late stage capitalism and we are starting to see it emerge all over the place. Developed countries have been generating return increasingly by replacing capital with cheaper debt rather than genuine growth, but debt brings inherent volatility (eg in 2008) as well as having its own limits.

Secondly, capitalism is based on the idea of something approaching full employment. However, this is under massive threat from automation. Although Trump rose to power on the basis of promising he will return jobs in the US from offshoring, the truth is that about 87% of jobs lost in America in the last decade or so have not gone overseas, they have simply disappeared to robots. The number of consultants I now interact with that are promising automation in the next ten years is frightening. Anything that currently requires a human to make a judgement based on acquired knowledge is under threat. It is not clear that jobs will be there to replace this wholesale loss of employment. And capitalism can not cope with wide scale unemployment; it just fundamentally breaks one of its underlying principles.

The next point is that capitalism is not just capitalism. A socioeconomic system also has features owing to its social structures, which interact in complex ways with its economic ones. I’m going to steal from what I wrote on this post a bit here and repeat some of the pertinent parts:

me on above linked thread said:
By the "nature of society", I mean a lot of things, including:
  • The activities and practices people engage in as part of society
  • What the priorities and principles are of the society
  • How identity is formed in that society
  • The social order (i.e. how and why the society coheres)
  • The nature of what is produced and how this is done
These things are all inter-related, as are many more concepts that become relevant depending on what is being considered, such as how technology affects all this, or how external factors might create pressures on it. It's a big concept.

The nature of society evolves and is messy. There are no clean breaks, and attempts at categorisation will always leave pieces unmatched. However, we can broadly tell the following very brief story of the UK. Following all kinds of historical types of society -- Feudal, agarian and so on -- we had the Enlightenment, which prioritised a certain type of identity and mindset, followed by the Industrial revolution, which created other types of social pressure. During this period, the foundations of capitalism were laid as the economic basis. By the time we reached the 20th century, we had a capitalist society that was built on industrialism. It relied on skilled labour, the most important freedoms were political in nature, people defined themselves by the jobs they did within that society (paid or unpaid). The "activities and practices" people engaged in were those of industrialism, namely communities built on this working self-definition. The social order was that of people having their place and understanding themselves through that place.

At some point in the latter half of the 20th century, however, things started to change. Consumerism started to take over, in which people defined themselves by "what they are into" rather than "what they do". Important freedoms became those of individualism, choice, market freedom. The "activities and practices" people engaged in started moving towards shopping as leisure, the advertising industry grew to drive a wedge into this self-expression through market choice and lever it wider. People were capable of building their own bespoke identity through their selection of goods and services to consume, and the use of these things as extensions of the self. Old social order broke down -- people became less sure of their "place" and they replaced it with a custom-made template of what "people like them" do, hang out with and spend money on. This happened in parallel with the nature of what is produced transitioning from large-scale manufacturing to a service-based and then increasingly finance-based economy, which can make use of transitory and unskilled labour.

I really don't think you can make general points about structures within capitalism and ignore these changes. At a surface level, the same critiques all still apply -- ownership of the means of production is still the engine of power, interests are still aligned along class lines, capital still protects itself. But the specifics of what that means for a society is very different. Individuals who have built their identity through the accumulation of consumer self-extensions engage differently to those who have built their identity through understanding their place within their work-based community

Finally, your statement that “capitalism has been successful” really needs investigation. What do you mean by “successful”? All measures of mental well-being have shown incredibly alarming trends in the last 30 years. A quarter of our teenage girls are clinically depressed. Wider anxiety levels have reached epidemic proportions. Suicide rates have been broadly increasing. The population is not content, and it is their environment that has generated this. This is true for the entire populations of developed countries too, not just the poorly off. The social environment is mentally damaging the well off as well as the poor, and damaging us all in really worrying numbers and dangerous ways.

Note too that the gene pool is effectively identical to 50, 100, 200 year’s ago, it’s the environment that has changed. You can’t just complain that people are whiners, because even if they are, it is their environment that has made them so. We are collectively a product of our system, so if you don’t like the attitudes, it follows that you don’t like the system that generated them.

Personally, I can’t measure the success of a system purely in terms of material goods. We’re generating more stuff but it’s not making us happy, so what’s the point? In the end, it’s what it is doing to people’s overall well being that counts. On that front at least, our current system of late stage consumer-capitalism is a spectacular failure.
 
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Funny how the banks never seem to run out of other people's money.
Fractional reserves. They create money through debt.

So if my bank has £Nm in deposits, it can lend N *8. In truth they lend way beyond this ratio. Quite a few of the major banks are so far beyond insolvency as to be another category altogether. Deutsche bank is going to be the next lehman brothers and with drag down a fair few other banks with it.
 
It offers them a means to indirectly gain from the achievements of others. A morally indecent way of thinking, but understandably alluring to the less scrupulous amongst us.
if you think this then you shouldn't be using a computer, a pen or a pencil being as you wouldn't want to benefit from the achievements of others. nor should you wear clothes, save those you've made yourself from scratch, or live in a house other than that you've built solely on your own labour.
 
....As for your shares; is it important for you to flaunt your wealth even if it is just to illustrate your point?
Chances are that the share portfolio is a small one/part of the pension scheme -so yet more substance-free bluster/'red-baiting'. Not everyone with shares is 'wealthy' and I doubt if this pillock is either (if they even have any to begin with).
 
Maybe you would like to enlighten us on how banks profit from repossessions? Doesn't excess funds from a sale go to the home owner? They usually either break-even or lose money when they repossess a property. They would surely prefer to keep charging the homeowner interest for many years, rather than this income stream be terminated.

I have shares in several banks and they appear to make their profits from charging interest on loans and from service charges etc.
You haven't been paying attention then. In many recent cases they have got rich by foreclosing on businesses and asset stripping them. And, you may recall, that until ten years ago they got rich by gambling* on fictitious real estate and thenrequired the state to bail them out (but not make them change their behaviour).


*All capitalism is just gambling,of course. As any sane economist would tell you, although not one like HL's Lorenzo, the slavery defending, paid shill for tobacco firms.
 
You haven't been paying attention then. In many recent cases they have got rich by foreclosing on businesses and asset stripping them. And, you may recall, that until ten years ago they got rich by gambling* on fictitious real estate and thenrequired the state to bail them out (but not make them change their behaviour).


*All capitalism is just gambling,of course. As any sane economist would tell you, although not one like HL's Lorenzo, the slavery defending, paid shill for tobacco firms.
Banks make the vast majority of their profits repackaging debts owed to them and selling them on to other banks, who in turn package and sell. Foreclosures and stuff are just to keep things ticking over.
 
Fractional reserves. They create money through debt.

So if my bank has £Nm in deposits, it can lend N *8. In truth they lend way beyond this ratio. Quite a few of the major banks are so far beyond insolvency as to be another category altogether. Deutsche bank is going to be the next lehman brothers and with drag down a fair few other banks with it.

Do you have a link to a simple explanation as to how banks can lend out more money than they actually have?

Frankly an awful lot of this kind of shit seems to revolve around creating value out of absolutely nothing.
 
Do you have a link to a simple explanation as to how banks can lend out more money than they actually have?

Frankly an awful lot of this kind of shit seems to revolve around creating value out of absolutely nothing.
Since the end of the gold standard, all money is fictional - fiat money based purely on trust.
 
Do you have a link to a simple explanation as to how banks can lend out more money than they actually have?

Frankly an awful lot of this kind of shit seems to revolve around creating value out of absolutely nothing.
Isn't this what the Chinese government have done? Create money to lend to developers to build cities? Presumably they can do that forever or is there a day of reckoning?
 
That's how global capitalism works. Banks hold x assets and lend twenty times those assets. Those loans and their repayments are then packaged into bundles and traded on the international markets between banks. Debts are rated according to risk of default. So a package of a-rated debts would pay less of a return and be less risky than a package of c or d rated debts. But due to the complex ways these debts are repackaged and resold, the a-rated packages are stuffed full of junk debts.

In 2008, when the American sub prime (junk rated) mortgage market collapsed - banks stopped getting the regular payments from these debts and started to call in their markers. To everyone's astonishment the chain of debt was well above the amount of money that banks actually had. Hey presto the credit crunch.

The solution to it was to.... Er... Spend all our money bailing out the banks... So they could go ahead and do the same shit all over again.

And governments got the theoretical printing presses going and started producing a ton more money to give to banks to start lending... And guess what the banks did with that money?
 
And governments got the theoretical printing presses going and started producing a ton more money to give to banks to start lending... And guess what the banks did with that money?
For the most part they bought government bonds with it so the government had the money to run the printing presses.
There are some people who really need to be stood up against a wall before the human race can advance any further.
 
[QUOTE="kabbes, post: 15273121, member: 35070"
Finally, your statement that “capitalism has been successful” really needs investigation. What do you mean by “successful”? All measures of mental well-being have shown incredibly alarming trends in the last 30 years. A quarter of our teenage girls are clinically depressed. Wider anxiety levels have reached epidemic proportions. Suicide rates have been broadly increasing. The population is not content, and it is their environment that has generated this. This is true for the entire populations of developed countries too, not just the poorly off. The social environment is mentally damaging the well off as well as the poor, and damaging us all in really worrying numbers and dangerous ways.

Note too that the gene pool is effectively identical to 50, 100, 200 year’s ago, it’s the environment that has changed. You can’t just complain that people are whiners, because even if they are, it is their environment that has made them so. We are collectively a product of our system, so if you don’t like the attitudes, it follows that you don’t like the system that generated them... We’re generating more stuff but it’s not making us happy, so what’s the point? In the end, it’s what it is doing to people’s overall well being that counts. On that front at least, our current system of late stage consumer-capitalism is a spectacular failure.[/QUOTE]

great post kabbes, thanks. I also think loneliness and social isolation are massive, massive issues in contemporary Britain as well, particularly among those who are no longer 'productive' as it were. I can't articulate it as well as you but I can't help feeling that whilst on the surface, everything is happy as larry, at least for some; underneath there are deep structural and environmental problems which technology won't resolve, and in fact as you point out, will even exacerbate.
 
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For the most part they bought government bonds with it so the government had the money to run the printing presses.
There are some people who really need to be stood up against a wall before the human race can advance any further.
Essentially they have sat on the money and not lent it.
 
That's how global capitalism works. Banks hold x assets and lend twenty times those assets. Those loans and their repayments are then packaged into bundles and traded on the international markets between banks. Debts are rated according to risk of default. So a package of a-rated debts would pay less of a return and be less risky than a package of c or d rated debts. But due to the complex ways these debts are repackaged and resold, the a-rated packages are stuffed full of junk debts.

In 2008, when the American sub prime (junk rated) mortgage market collapsed - banks stopped getting the regular payments from these debts and started to call in their markers. To everyone's astonishment the chain of debt was well above the amount of money that banks actually had. Hey presto the credit crunch.

The solution to it was to.... Er... Spend all our money bailing out the banks... So they could go ahead and do the same shit all over again.

And governments got the theoretical printing presses going and started producing a ton more money to give to banks to start lending... And guess what the banks did with that money?

edit, this is for the financial explosion thread not red jez thread
 
I am afraid I have lost most of my youthful confidence in achieving Socialism through the ballot box. I am in that position of choosing between a parliamentary sandwich made of human faeces and live maggots vs one made out of green hued runny stilton cheese that has been sitting at the back of the fridge, forgotton about since last Xmas day.

It is the stilton, but I will hold my nose
 
The people who really need help are the genuinely needy and the struggling elderly people, who we are not giving enough aid to because far too much of the Welfare budget is being spent on those with a mentality of entitlement who take advantage of the system, both legally and illegally.

Not an unusual opinion, if you have been drinking the media Kool aid for decades.

Tell me, how much of the welfare budget is spent on the 'entitled' who don't need it?

I bear witness to desperate poverty on a daily basis, getting worse all the time. People dying with empty bellies in one of the richest nations on earth. How dare they.

You utter bell end.
 
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