Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[DaveCinzano]

This whole exercise only makes sense as a gift for your puns

Britain's last great export sector

 

[phildwyer]

THat's not much of a reason. Blair is not in power now, Corbyn is, for now at least, in charge. I don't see the current Labour party getting away with things like the Bedroom Tax, for example. Sure they tightened the thumbscrews on the poor, but nothing in thirteen years like what this lot has done in 6.

The invasion of Iraq was a crime that puts everything the Tories have done in the shade.

 

[Rob Ray]

Okay having watched this I'm sold. My God the charisma, the pizzazz, the obvious leadership contender *swoons*. Angela is worth disregarding an overwhelming membership vote for, I'm certain her habit of blinking manically whenever she's under pressure won't be a "presentation issue".

 

[YouSir]

What were the turnouts like in Newcastle and Manchester last night? Turnout for last leadership vote was 422k. Petition of support currently at 216k, 10k out in London, however many in other cities. Obviously a lot of crossover and none of it amounts to anything solid. Still, can't understand how they think Angela Eagle could win. You van scare some people, some are naturally anti-Corbyn, some will swing away from him - but I've seen nothing to show the kind of shift they're betting on.

Getting harder to believe they have a master plan tbh.

 

[Sifta]

Birkenhead - Frank Field

Leave – 21,787 (51.7%)
Remain – 20,348 (48.3%)

Wallasey - Anna Eagle

Leave – 23,377 (49.9%)
Remain – 23,449 (50.1%)

Field: "This result is the first clear revolt against globalisation and its undermining of working-class living standards."
Eagle: "Corbyn must go"

Field might get to keep his seat.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Getting harder to believe they have a master plan tbh.

There's master plans, and then there's master plans.

 

[YouSir]

 

[kazza007]

So as usual on the Urban politics board the dissenting voices have been shouted down . Meanwhile out in the rest of the country Corbyn is still regarded as an ineffective idealist.
None of the people I've talked to about him since Friday think he is a good Labour leader. And these are people who hate the Tories and everything they do.

You'd probably dismiss their views, calling them traitors or lickspittles. But they are the people Labour needs to connect with again if it is going to get back into power and prevent the Tories causing more shite.

Spot on. Usual delusional in their little clique.

 

[Wilf]

But this just isn't true! This thread is remarkable, I think, for its openess, its don't knowness, and there's range of views about Corbyn. Mine, for example, is very much influenced by an interest in group dynamics; I'm really impressed by his ability to think under that kind of personal and political attack. I don't suppose this is in the forefront of most people's thinking on this thread.

For the same reason, I'm really interested in this idea of a leader as a kind of magical solution.

Yes, the thread is (reasonably) open and polite. I've been essentially arguing an illogical line about corbyn - I'm an anarchist who is thinking about what is happening within Labour entirely within the narrow logic of parliamentary politics (essentially, that corbyn and his followers are not playing the game well - either the internal party battle or the struggle to create a voting block that might win an election). I've not been shouted down... yet.

 

[YouSir]

Spot on. Usual delusional in their little clique.

Hundreds of thousands declare their support, thousands out on the streets, TU backing. But you're right, really it's just half a dozen Urbanites with lots of costume changes.

 

[butchersapron]

Yes, the thread is (reasonably) open and polite. I've been essentially arguing an illogical line about corbyn - I'm an ist who is thinking about what is happening within Labour entirely within the narrow logic of parliamentary politics (essentially, that corbyn and his followers are not playing the game well - either the internal party battle or the struggle to create a voting block that might win an election). I've not been shouted down... yet.

Shut up twat. I think to try and approach the issue from that angle is to accept totally the grounds of the blairites etc when the whole point of the corbyn election was to open up the territory outside of parliament and the electoral process. I don't think the new members and the corbynites have actually followed through on their promises at all (thereby possibly falsifying my suggestion that this has given the labour party illusory left-legs for another 20 years) and have ended up simply being a support for parliamentary politics of a leadership type - but whilst the opp is there to think outside of that circus i think you have to. Esp as an ist.

 

[Rob Ray]

Spot on. Usual delusional in their little clique.

Really? Because I've not seen anyone present Corbyn as the perfect option here, or argue he's particularly effective, either at what the Blairites want (ie. winning an election that they themselves couldn't win in a month of Sundays) or what the party left wants (a change in direction). The words "traitor" and "lickspittle" haven't been uttered. In fact I'm not seeing a single accurate statement in rubbershoes' post.

As for "utterly delusional" I'm still yet to see any one of the people calling on Corbyn to resign put forward a strong argument that goes beyond "Corbyn's shit and should leave." Alright he's shit. So what happens next?

 

[Wilf]

FWIW BBC reporting just now that Angela Eagle is likely to be put up against Corbyn if, as expected, he loses the confidence vote. She was said to be the person all factions could agree on. Says it all really.

Guardian were reporting that she was visibly upset at the plp meeting following her earlier resigning performance in the telly interview. She's emerging as the 'regretful traitor'.

 

[killer b]

What's an Ist?

 

[butchersapron]

Guardian were reporting that she was visibly upset at the plp meeting following her earlier resigning performance in the telly interview. She's emerging as the 'regretful traitor'.

Marc Antony:

Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears
Brutus says he is now regretting the work of his knife
Sorry about that

 

[DaveCinzano]

What's an Ist?

It's like on ology, but less sciencey

 

[butchersapron]

What's an Ist?

I think he meant to type anarchist.

 

[Wilf]

What's an Ist?

What happens when you try and do the @ ist shorthand on a board that uses the @ thing to tag members.

 

[killer b]

you should consider stopping using such a silly shorthand altogether, tbf

 

[Sifta]

Marc Antony:

Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears
Brutus says he is now regretting the work of his knife
Sorry about that

Out, damned spot! out, I say!--One: two: why,
then, 'tis time to do't.--Hell is murky!--Fie, my
lord, fie! a soldier, and afeard? What need we
fear who knows it, when none can call our power to
account?--Yet who would have thought the old man
to have had so much blood in him.

 

[Wilf]

you should consider stopping using such a silly shorthand altogether, tbf

((((ists)))))

 

[cantsin]

there's another thread for this I know, but, jack monroe's incessant, freeform fruitbat twitter assault on Corbyn has gone of on some fair old tangents / today tnight

....(((jack monroe))) (@MxJackMonroe) on Twitter

"How many lining up to smear me have not taken a day off in about 4 years because your heart breaks for injustice and you just have to help? "

"Who among my haters has sent countless 'weekly shops' to absolute strangers on the breadline as a result of benefit cuts and sanctions? "

etc etc , forever

 

[DaveCinzano]

"How many lining up to smear me have not taken a day off in about 4 years because your heart breaks for injustice and you just have to help? "

"Who among my haters has sent countless 'weekly shops' to absolute strangers on the breadline as a result of benefit cuts and sanctions? "

etc etc , forever

 

[mk12]

I'm not backing 'an-anti democratic coup', the membership will decide. Given this strong position why stick with a risible leader?

The membership did decide. Less than a year ago.

 

[Wilf]

Shut up twat. I think to try and approach the issue from that angle is to accept totally the grounds of the blairites etc when the whole point of the corbyn election was to open up the territory outside of parliament and the electoral process. I don't think the new members and the corbynites have actually followed through on their promises at all (thereby possibly falsifying my suggestion that this has given the labour party illusory left-legs for another 20 years) and have ended up simply being a support for parliamentary politics of a leadership type - but whilst the opp is there to think outside of that circus i think you have to. Esp as an ist.

Well, I agree with all of that, that's the criticism I've been marking of the corbyn thing for a while. I've seen good comrades, even a few, ahem, ists seduced by the whole thing. I never went anywhere near that far but did think there was a slight opportunity to build something else, to think beyond the Westminster dance. That would have required a new mind set, a new way of thinking, just to get to the point where local branches and clps worked with other groups and opened themselves up to the community. It might not have worked and would have been sabotaged by the blairites all the way. But it doesn't matter, they haven't done it and here we are. To be honest, I'm not sure corbyn himself ever planned to do anything of the sort.

However when I'm arguing labour is fucked, pretty much along the lines that a run of the mill tv commentator would argue, that's not just the logic of blairism. It's the rules of the game that corbyn himself chose long ago. he's a parliamentary social democrat even if he hasn't got quite the cretinism of tony benn. If he and his followers aren't going to play a new game they will end up losing the conventional one. A massive blood letting of the blairites at this stage might secure the party but it pushes the notion of a general election victory even further away. He's lost.

 

[YouSir]

Well, I agree with all of that, that's the criticism I've been marking of the corbyn thing for a while. I've seen good comrades, even a few, ahem, ists seduced by the whole thing. I never went anywhere near that far but did think there was a slight opportunity to build something else, to think beyond the Westminster dance. That would have required a new mind set, a new way of thinking, just to get to the point where local branches and clps worked with other groups and opened themselves up to the community. It might not have worked and would have been sabotaged by the blairites all the way. But it doesn't matter, they haven't done it and here we are. To be honest, I'm not sure corbyn himself ever planned to do anything of the sort.

However when I'm arguing labour is fucked, pretty much along the lines that a run of the mill tv commentator would argue, that's not just the logic of blairism. It's the rules of the game that corbyn himself chose long ago. he's a parliamentary social democrat even if he hasn't got quite the cretinism of tony benn. If he and his followers aren't going to play a new game they will end up losing the conventional one. A massive blood letting of the blairites at this stage might secure the party but it pushes the notion of a general election victory even further away. He's lost.

I don't agree that the potential for an election victory is lost, but that's by the by really. Winning a fight for the party now wins potential, either under Corbyn or someone else the party will be pried open and forced to accept something closer to its founding purpose. It'll never be something that appeals to your politics, but it'll certainly be better for them if there's a mainstream left voice, even a parliamentary, social democratic one.

 

[Rob Ray]

However when I'm arguing labour is fucked, pretty much along the lines that a run of the mill tv commentator would argue, that's not just the logic of blairism. It's the rules of the game that corbyn himself chose long ago. he's a parliamentary social democrat even if he hasn't got quite the cretinism of tony benn. If he and his followers aren't going to play a new game they will end up losing the conventional one. A massive blood letting of the blairites at this stage might secure the party but it pushes the notion of a general election victory even further away. He's lost.

I don't think Corbyn's playing the electoral game right now.

He's got a win scenario here, just not an electoral one (if we're honest there isn't an electoral one for Labour, the coup attempt has made damn sure of that with or without Corbyn at the helm). If he holds out to the next election, two things happen. One, MPs become eligible for deselection, and if there's enough solidly pro-Corbyn CLPs at that point, some of the party right will go. Two, it gives his allies more time to sink hooks into the internal machinery. If he gets both those, even after he loses the election there's a good chance enough left MPs will have been selected and installed that the magic 34 is available for the next left candidate and crucially, the Blairites won't be in a position to change the election rules to wipe out the one-member-one-vote +£3ers system. At that point, Corbyn's won.

It also opens the space and time for the things you're talking about, which are going to take far more time and effort than mere words about "opening up to the community." Seriously it's difficult to overstate the scale of that job, even for Labour. The left generally has been dead in the water nationwide for decades, you can't just snap fingers and expect a couple of old MPs plus a bundle of enthusiastic newbies to turn it around on a dime. There's entire CLPs which need repopulating, whole towns where young adults have no connection even to trade unions, let alone to a party that's never been anything other than utterly irrelevant. It's not an easy job even when you're not under near-constant attack from your own side.

 

[billy_bob]

Some polling that says 25% of the people who voted Labour at the last GE wouldn't again if Corbyn was the leader. That's obviuosly not encouraging in terms of GE victory, but it's far from the whole picture. How many Miliband-Labour voters were disgruntled former Lib Dem voters who might have drifted back that way anyway as memories of the Coalition faded? How many possible Labour voters stayed away last time either because they were unconvinced by Miliband personally, or because the party's apologetic half-way house of Tory-lite policies did nothing for anyone? How many of them might return under Corbyn? How many of that 25% would in fact grit their teeth in the end and vote for a Labour Party that wasn't exactly the Labour Party they wanted - as many millions have done since 1997?

On the other hand the 'blairites' are surely finished, and really have no grasp of just how much they're despised by many and seen as a complete irrelevance by many others.

So I'm not entirely convinced that the bloodletting/sticking with Corbyn makes GE victory any more unlikely than it already was.

I say this not as a particular Corbyn fan. I've never fallen for the 'he will save us' nonsense, and his presence so far has been more principled than that of some past leaders, perhaps, but pretty lacklustre. I think the Labour Party's probably doomed, and we can look forward to at least two more full terms of Tories (probably more if a GE is imminent) before anything even remotely useful is created in its place.

 

[chilango]

I regard the Labour Party as (part of) the "enemy" and historically have had little time for Corbyn, as butchersapron has already pointed out, he represents the sort of left that was so damaging during the 80s.

However, a victory for Corbyn here opens up more possibilities than a defeat would do.

 

[inva]

I regard the Labour Party as (part of) the "enemy" and historically have had little time for Corbyn, as butchersapron has already pointed out, he represents the sort of left that was so damaging during the 80s.

However, a victory for Corbyn here opens up more possibilities than a defeat would do.

do you mean a ge victory or him staying as leader?