Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[YouSir]

If you say so. I'd caution though that if you think the rank and file membership who pound the streets talking to non members will do so for Corbyn, you're being similarly naive. This can be extended to thinking that the new members will fill that void.

New members are already filling that void and plenty of longer term members will be happy to join them, even some who support Smith but have more about them than your impressions suggest.

 

[brogdale]

If you say so. I'd caution though that if you think the rank and file membership who pound the streets talking to non members will do so for Corbyn, you're being similarly naive. This can be extended to thinking that the new members will fill that void.

(Top tip; cut the unhelpful passive/aggressive openings)
I've made no prediction about the campaigning capabilities of the respective supporters, but it seems like you're arguing for Smith on the basis that the 'old guard' rank & file might refuse to campaign for a Corbyn led party? Wow, that's some endorsement.

 

[redsquirrel]

that being part of it he could (can) try to shape the debate around what matters for the membership eg making the party a genuinely democratic socialist one.

Right and this commitment to democratic socialism is shown how? In his arguing for privatisation of the NHS, that Tony Blair is a socialist, his abstention on the welfare bill, his support for the Iraq war?

Smith's current play to the left, and the Labour right's current silence, is because both he and they know that otherwise Corbyn would thrash him to an even greater extent than he will, not because either he or the Progress scum have any commitment such mild social democracy (let alone democratic socialism).

 

[killer b]

The long term rank & file back Corbyn though, on the whole. Of course they'll campaign for him.

 

[Cwmflame]

(Top tip; cut the unhelpful passive/aggressive openings)
I've made no prediction about the campaigning capabilities of the respective supporters, but it seems like you're arguing for Smith on the basis that the 'old guard' rank & file might refuse to campaign for a Corbyn led party? Wow, that's some endorsement.

I'm new to interacting on these things so excuse my etiquette, I'm attempting to be polite.
That is exactly what I'm arguing though, and I'm not a massive supporter of Smith or his style.

I've been at party meetings in the last year, and there isn't that enthusiasm to convert non supporters to the cause under corbyn. There is a greater spirit at party rallies and events but this isn't going to win votes.

I do believe Smith is being portrayed unfairly though.... For instance, the claim he's dishonest about valleys heritage when he indisputably is from ponty, and various other smears to his character.

And I know this is happening to corbyn to a greater extent.

My fear is for what's left of the country after another decade plus of tory rule because that's what we're enabling. I don't think the tone of our internal debate is helping.

 

[Cwmflame]

Right and this commitment to democratic socialism is shown how? In his arguing for privatisation of the NHS, that Tony Blair is a socialist, his abstention on the welfare bill, his support for the Iraq war?

Smith's current play to the left, and the Labour right's current silence, is because both he and they know that otherwise Corbyn would thrash him to an even greater extent than he will, not because either he or the Progress scum have any commitment such mild social democracy (let alone democratic socialism).

And this is encapsulates what I mean.

 

[brogdale]

I'm new to interacting on these things so excuse my etiquette, I'm attempting to be polite.
That is exactly what I'm arguing though, and I'm not a massive supporter of Smith or his style.

I've been at party meetings in the last year, and there isn't that enthusiasm to convert non supporters to the cause under corbyn. There is a greater spirit at party rallies and events but this isn't going to win votes.

I do believe Smith is being portrayed unfairly though.... For instance, the claim he's dishonest about valleys heritage when he indisputably is from ponty, and various other smears to his character.

And I know this is happening to corbyn to a greater extent.

My fear is for what's left of the country after another decade plus of tory rule because that's what we're enabling. I don't think the tone of our internal debate is helping.

There's no need to fabricate stuff that implicates Smith; his career choices and voting record are a testament to his acceptance of centrist, crony-capitalism unthreatening to neoliberal interests. If that's what LP members want, they'll vote for him.

 

[redsquirrel]

And this is encapsulates what I mean.

OK if I'm being unfair post some examples of his commitment to democratic socialism. Things that he's actually done rather than shitty soundbites.

 

[DrRingDing]

Smith's a snake and no mistake.

 

[Cwmflame]

OK if I'm being unfair post some examples of his commitment to democratic socialism. Things that he's actually done rather than shitty soundbites.

Joined the Labour Party, got elected MP, served in two shadow cabinets, caused the government u-turn on disability benefits

 

[redsquirrel]

Joined the Labour Party, got elected MP, served in two shadow cabinets, caused the government u-turn on disability benefits

None of that shows any commitment to democratic socialism, and the last claim is bullshit anyway, if anybody in Labour can claim that it's Corbyn/McDonnell/etc. Despite the protestation of fuckwits the Labour party has never been a socialist party and during Smith's time couldn't even claim to be a social democratic party. The shadow cabinet he didn't resign from wouldn't commit to nationalisation of the railways and didn't campaign on an opposition to austerity.

Rachel 'tougher than the Tories on welfare' Reeves joined the labour party, got elected as an MP* and served in the shadow cabinet but only an utter moron could claim that she's anything other than neo-liberal filth. Pathetic Labour=socialism bullshit.

*Love how getting elected as an MP shows a commitment to democratic socialism, is Teresa May part of the way there.

 

[Cwmflame]

Why is the last point (it's not a claim, he was the shadow dwp secretary) bullshit?

Your equation is interesting though. Angry much?

 

[DrRingDing]

Joined the Labour Party, got elected MP, served in two shadow cabinets, caused the government u-turn on disability benefits

'Joined the Labour Party' - Does not denote socialist of any hue.
'Got elected MP' - See above
'Served in two shadow cabinets' - How does that make you a socialist?
'caused the government u-turn on disability benefits' - It was his job to oppose Tory benefit cuts and yet he still abstained from the welfare bill vote. Repugnant.

But of course his flip flopping with the wind is a sign of his 'dynamism'.

 

[Cwmflame]

Why would a non socialist join the Labour Party?

 

[redsquirrel]

There it is Labour=socialism and socialism=Labour.

 

[killer b]

The labour party is famously a broad ideological coalition which includes socialists among its ranks rather than being a socialist party - didn't you say you were a member?

 

[Cwmflame]

The labour party is famously a broad ideological coalition which includes socialists among its ranks rather than being a socialist party - didn't you say you were a member?

I suppose I'm misreading clause 1 on my card

 

[killer b]

Christ.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Why would a non socialist join the Labour Party?

Is that a serious question?

 

[Sue]

Why would a non socialist join the Labour Party?

Oh my.

 

[8ball]

Why would a non socialist join the Labour Party?

 

[brogdale]

 

[8ball]

 

[Cwmflame]

I'm obviously too dense for this. What's your collective point?

 

[8ball]

I'm obviously too dense for this. What's your collective point?

I think you hit on it in your first sentence.

 

[free spirit]

I'm obviously too dense for this. What's your collective point?

they're hardly socialists - neoliberals the lot of them.*

Have you been in a coma for 30 years?

eta with the possible exception of Prescott.

 

[Sue]

Why would a non socialist join the Labour Party?

Why would a socialist join the Labour Party?

 

[Saul Goodman]

A veritable plethora of Che Guevara wannabes.

 

[Cid]

I'm obviously too dense for this. What's your collective point?

 

[Cwmflame]

So what specific hoops must you jump through to be defined as a socialist in your views, just so I can be clear for the future?