Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[two sheds]

That's it though - we've had tory lite labour for a decade. I'd have loved to have voted Labour but the Blair legacy has been too toxic for me. The first whiff of an actual social democrat and the PLP turns on him.

It's not about Corbyn versus Smith it's the membership who have made their views clear against the right wing of the labour party.

 

[brogdale]

I hope the new majority is right and I'm wrong, because a decade plus of an unchecked Tory party, spurred to go further right by the likes of Ukip, will be a disaster of our own making.

But in saying 'right' and 'wrong' you seem to be viewing the ideological struggle for the party as a mere electoral strategy. Either the LP is a socialist (social democratic) party or its not.

 

[killer b]

Can we stop saying 'tory-lite' please? It's a really irritating phrase. There are significant ideological differences between the parties, and where they do/did agree - on neoliberal economics - there wasn't anything 'lite' about new labour's commitment.

 

[butchersapron]

I can’t say I’m totally against a revolution but it depends on who takes over. If it’s someone like Chomsky then I’m all for it. I’m concerned though that (a) it’s not going to be ‘us’ that takes over (b) even if it is ‘us’ I’m not sure the people who take control are going to be any better.

That was what I wanted to say by asking what’s the alternative, and I have problems as I say with the adversarial urban discussions. I apologize to butchers though butchersapron. You’ve been more than fair with Corbyn and have recently explained stuff to me quite patiently, I shouldn’t have lost it with you. I’ve learned as much on politics from you as anyone on urban. Anyway, sorry.

No worries. Blame the daft heat - I've not go much time to post here this week anyway.

 

[Cwmflame]

But in saying 'right' and 'wrong' you seem to be viewing the ideological struggle for the party as a mere electoral strategy. Either the LP is a socialist (social democratic) party or its not.

And here's the issue. We're fighting the wrong battle. This struggle could leave the left irretrievably split. The only winners will be the right.

 

[redsquirrel]

I would have thought that it's pretty obvious from the last four pages that for plenty of those who have posted on this thread don't have the same aims as you, there is no 'we' that includes you and them

 

[brogdale]

And here's the issue. We're fighting the wrong battle. This struggle could leave the left irretrievably split. The only winners will be the right.

You might be.
The struggle to make the LP a genuinely social democratic party might split off the majority of the neoliberal PLP but that could not possibly represent an irretrievable split of the left.

 

[Cwmflame]

My only aim from posting was to point out that Smith isn't being dishonest to say he's a 'valley boy'. I've also defended his motives from what I've seen of him. You have no idea what my 'aims' beyond this are.

 

[YouSir]

[

I hope the new majority is right and I'm wrong, because a decade plus of an unchecked Tory party, spurred to go further right by the likes of Ukip, will be a disaster of our own making.

Not mine it isn't, no idea what you've been up to.

 

[brogdale]

My only aim from posting was to point out that Smith isn't being dishonest to say he's a 'valley boy'. I've also defended his motives from what I've seen of him. You have no idea what my 'aims' beyond this are.

I don't think anyone has suggested that they know what your 'aims' are. You could tell us to avoid any confusion.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I can’t say I’m totally against a revolution but it depends on who takes over. If it’s someone like Chomsky then I’m all for it. I’m concerned though that (a) it’s not going to be ‘us’ that takes over (b) even if it is ‘us’ I’m not sure the people who take control are going to be any better.

That was what I wanted to say by asking what’s the alternative, and I have problems as I say with the adversarial urban discussions. I apologize to butchers though butchersapron. You’ve been more than fair with Corbyn and have recently explained stuff to me quite patiently, I shouldn’t have lost it with you. I’ve learned as much on politics from you as anyone on urban. Anyway, sorry.

I'm not an expert but i don't think even chomsky would find the idea of having a revolution so we can replace westminster with NOAM CHOMSKY particularly palatable, this explanation of council communism mentioned in the post you responded to looks accessible enough, although i'm not educated enough to know if it has any big errors Council communism - an introduction and 2 minutes from Noam Chomsky talking about partcipatory democracy and structures of dominance with links to the whole talk in the description "very rarely you can justify a structure of dominance, and where you can't, it should simply be dismantled" unless i've misread your post but it seems the opposite of what chomsky or those interested in council communism and would be advocating, otherwise i'm probs teaching grannie to suck eggs!

 

[two sheds]

I was using the image of Chomsky storming into Downing Street figuratively, honest.

Will look at that when I get back from walking the dog - ta

 

[andysays]

My only aim from posting was to point out that Smith isn't being dishonest to say he's a 'valley boy'. I've also defended his motives from what I've seen of him. You have no idea what my 'aims' beyond this are.

Why should any but the most narrowly parochial care if he's a "valley boy" or not?

It's more that, with his pretence not to know what a frothy coffee is and other faux naif affectations, he has deliberately and dishonestly sought to play up his valley boy roots and simultaneously play down his role as a cog in the capitalist machine.

 

[butchersapron]

I think the timings had more to do with age than party policy at the time. I joined when Blair was leader of the opposition, but at the time identified as a syndicalist (I get the hypocracy). I think if you're 16, left leaning, and want to be involved in politics you generally join the Labour Party.

I think that's pretty much what you don't do under Blair and Kinnock if you're 16 and left-leaning. It might be where you end up, but rarely is it where you start. And for those who do (thinking of Smith here) it probably has something to with local ins (personal and institutional) that his father and family could provide him with rather than any burning political principle. The lack of any substantive record of him actually doing anything during the political/social struggles in this period or the later fights (orgreave, hillsborough etc) would also seem to back that up.

 

[Cwmflame]

Why should any but the most narrowly parochial care if he's a "valley boy" or not?

It's more that, with his pretence not to know what a frothy coffee is and other faux naif affectations, he has deliberately and dishonestly sought to play up his valley boy roots and simultaneously play down his role as a cog in the capitalist machine.

I was pointing out that people claimed he was not from the valleys, he was from Barry. He is undoubtedly from ponty. I was merely correcting a factual error.

My aims, in so far as I have any, are to support the party who is most likely to bring social democratic change to the country. I don't think Labour is perfect in this regard, and I do understand the burning desire to have purity of thought and intention in the party. I just think that holding out for unconditional victory is a path that can lead us to having no victories at all. I don't particularly want to have no social reform, no policies to help the people who need it etc just because I can't have everything. If we can't convince the whole of the party, how will we convince the whole country (and obviously, beyond)?

And as a valley boy myself, parochialism is hard to shift!

 

[existentialist]

The level of posting insults and opinions. All I was doing was correcting some incorrect information about Owen, as I'm sure everyone is interested in having their facts straight. I wasn't particularly looking to engage in childish name calling.

Seen the thread title? Not wondered what the relevance of Smith is on a thread like this? That must have taken some pretty selective perception.

Nice pearls you're clutching there, though

 

[existentialist]

I'd hang in there, few more times back and forth and you can sell your story of online lefty bullying hell to all the newspapers.

I imagine it was being written before Burning Gulch had clicked Post on his first contribution to Urban.

 

[inva]

I was pointing out that people claimed he was not from the valleys, he was from Barry. He is undoubtedly from ponty. I was merely correcting a factual error.

My aims, in so far as I have any, are to support the party who is most likely to bring social democratic change to the country. I don't think Labour is perfect in this regard, and I do understand the burning desire to have purity of thought and intention in the party. I just think that holding out for unconditional victory is a path that can lead us to having no victories at all. I don't particularly want to have no social reform, no policies to help the people who need it etc just because I can't have everything. If we can't convince the whole of the party, how will we convince the whole country (and obviously, beyond)?

And as a valley boy myself, parochialism is hard to shift!

given the record of the Labour Party both in and out of power this seems a strange ambition

 

[Cwmflame]

Seen the thread title? Not wondered what the relevance of Smith is on a thread like this? That must have taken some pretty selective perception.

Nice pearls you're clutching there, though

Just thought you'd be interested in having the facts straight, obviously I was mistaken

 

[Kaka Tim]

I just think that holding out for unconditional victory is a path that can lead us to having no victories at all.

But isn't this what the right of PLP are doing though? They want to contorl the party and stick to their dogma of PR poltics and blairite triangualtion - offering a few "consumer freindly" policies whilst sticking to the fundamentals of neo-liberalism.
But this apporach lost the last two elections, led to the eradication of labour scotland, fueled the rise of UKIP and led to Brexit - becasue people are not buying it any more.
To continue down this route is dilusional - it will lead to the labour party withering away into insignificance.
With Corbyn and a newly enthused mass movement there is - at least - the potentail for change via grassroots campaigning and tradiationally social democratic policies (build council houses, renationaliste the railways, a mild dose of redistibution) as a way of regaining the trust of the voters.
The PLP keep decrying Corbyn "unelectability" - but withtout any evidence that they can win themselves.

 

[Lorca]

serious question, assuming you're right and this 'pragmatism' is an electoral necessity - that there can never be a realistic political alternative to centre-rightism of one form or another, other than tinkering a little round the edges. if this consensus becomes normalised to the extent that you can't concieve of any other way, what are the long term implications for example, for ordinary people like me (a van driver on a zero hours contract)? is the limit of your thinking, a perpetual electoral cycle between tory/labour right? is that it? sorry, but i for one am fucking tired of that shite and so are plenty of members of your own party afaics. (note - not that anyone here is uncritically claiming jc is the messiah, obvs.)

 

[existentialist]

I believe that through exasperation with what's going on in the party be decided to stand. He described to the local clp that he wasn't part of the coup, and I believed him. I think that he realised that if there was to be a contest and a very public debate about the shape of the party, that being part of it he could (can) try to shape the debate around what matters for the membership eg making the party a genuinely democratic socialist one. I believe that he believes that in having a debate where the terms are about what the membership cares about, there's a chance that the party might hold together. If one of the blairites, or red tories, or right of the party had stood, the debate would have been completely different and the party would definitely split. If he'd acquiesced on the matter, he would be part of the future Corbyn leadership, but that would be as part of a split party. As it stands, it probably will still split, but he's trying to do something to stop it.

The silence from the blairites in regards to supporting Smith is telling as to where he stands in the party. I believe that for all the noise going on around the debate, you've got a guy who wants to save the party he cares about.... Save it from the right of the party as much as the left.

If I'm naive, or if I'm trying to control the debate, I apologise. I just tried to correct a falsehood about my local MP.

Bless.

 

[Pickman's model]

I hope the new majority is right and I'm wrong, because a decade plus of an unchecked Tory party, spurred to go further right by the likes of Ukip, will be a disaster of our own making.

yeh. cos 75% of the electorate didn't vote tory.

 

[existentialist]

If you say so. I'd caution though that if you think the rank and file membership who pound the streets talking to non members will do so for Corbyn, you're being similarly naive. This can be extended to thinking that the new members will fill that void.

Is Urban suddenly so important in the Labour Party's civil war that we've been allocated a handler?

(and is this the best they could manage?)

 

[Pickman's model]

Is Urban suddenly so important in the Labour Party's civil war that we've been allocated a handler?

(and is this the best they could manage?)

i will get onto john smith house 105 victoria street and demand we receive the handler we deserve.

 

[Cwmflame]

I too am tired of it, and Corbyn and the new movement represent the views I would guess of most of the membership. What we don't want to do is lose the marginals for good. If the party splits, which it could, that will happen. I believe Smith is sincere in his motives (I think he'll lose), but I think it's a result of exasperation. We have to find a way of winning the argument nationwide, and this lust for denouncing all bar the fervent acolytes is doing nothing to help this.

We need to find a way to unite in a collegiate way. And I know the right of the party are not the people to put on a pedestal in this regard. Then we might have one clear voice.

 

[Pickman's model]

I too am tired of it, and Corbyn and the new movement represent the views I would guess of most of the membership. What we don't want to do is lose the marginals for good. If the party splits, which it could, that will happen. I believe Smith is sincere in his motives (I think he'll lose), but I think it's a result of exasperation. We have to find a way of winning the argument nationwide, and this lust for denouncing all bar the fervent acolytes is doing nothing to help this.

We need to find a way to unite in a collegiate way. And I know the right of the party are not the people to put on a pedestal in this regard. Then we might have one clear voice.

"winning the argument": like there's only one to be had
"a way to unite" "one clear voice" "a collegiate way" "sincere in his motives" "fervent acolytes": i think you've imbibed the labourspeak dictionary for too long.

 

[killer b]

I think that's pretty much what you don't do under Blair and Kinnock if you're 16 and left-leaning.

I did, tbf. I was a fairly confused teenager.

 

[Cwmflame]

"winning the argument": like there's only one to be had
"a way to unite" "one clear voice" "a collegiate way" "sincere in his motives" "fervent acolytes": i think you've imbibed the labourspeak dictionary for too long.

How should I have worded that? We do have to win the argument, because I don't see much appetite for a bloody revolution.

 

[Pickman's model]

How should I have worded that? We do have to win the argument, because I don't see much appetite for a bloody revolution.

you're not doing very well here