ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
The campaign was based on xenophobia and racism but the vote itself wasn't.
Jeremy Corbyn's time is up
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The campaign was based on xenophobia and racism but the vote itself wasn't.
billy_bob
Air of bewilderment model's own
I hope the speed of this is a sign of a new decisiveness. He's tried the 'big tent' approach and it failed. Maybe he had to start off that way or the old guard would have caused even more chaos than they have from within. But at this stage Corbyn has to accept that the only option is to have them outside pissing in, and invest in a waterproof groundsheet and some strong disinfectant.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
I can see the theoretical strategic merits of lexit, but the inescapable reality of the campaign/vote is that large sections of the class have been persuaded that their immiserisation derives from the super-state & all its works, and not neoliberalism itself. Further, they have been persuaded that the solution to these ills is rejection of the super-state and immigration.
The old Kent Miners banner said "Organise, agitate & educate"; the right have done a good job of the first two, and the latter has been ignored or, worse still, set back decades.
Balbi
Hey, Dean Yager!
Reckon the Junior and Secretarial jobs will be a pain in the arse to fill though.
ska invita
back on the other side
P
Particularly a dagger in tony bs dead body considering the opportunity for a left labour exit. A lesson to people who choose to have children in the hope that they'll carry on your work and legacy
Libertad
Sparking up a rollie in the Reichstag
Good analogy well articulated.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
All he has to do is to position himself ever-so-slightly as "not establishment" (something which comes naturally to JC), and he'd be a shoe-in again. The trouble is that I'm beginning to wonder if he's got anything going for him, politically, other than "not establishment". We need a maverick, but one with some kind of set of principles, and the guts to get out there and lay them out.
billy_bob
Air of bewilderment model's own
I have a lot of respect for the principled left-wing 'leave' perspective, but I think it's futile to deny that a large part of it was.
It's no good just saying 'x percent said immigration wasn't their main concern' - of course many people are telling the truth when they say that, but equally clearly a lot aren't. In the polling station where I was working last Thursday a constant stream of people made it unwelcomely clear that that was exactly what their main concern was. Self-reported data on views on immigration and 'race' these days is highly unreliable. We can't know what proportion of that x percent were 'I'm not a racist but...' leave voters, but I think it would be naive to imagine it wasn't a significant number.
ska invita
back on the other side
Cheers libertad.... And btw I hope there are no recriminations amongst friends and people with same political goals... Events will move fast and its going to be a massive task to try and have any positive influence on that.
At the moment there is a chasm opened up between people who voted one way or other and that does need closing up asap ... Sneering at one another really doesn't help.
Though it is very entertaining to see that split play out amongst the political parties.
Libertad
Sparking up a rollie in the Reichstag
Indeed, we live in interesting times.
does being concerned by immigration make you a racist/xenophobic?
there seems to be an unhelpful conflation of those positions.
ska invita
back on the other side
op
It's an open door to a good communicator who can inspire...
I've got a copy of the rulebook, and the relevant section is this:
Clause IV.
Selection of Westminster
parliamentary candidates
1. The NEC shall issue procedural rules and guidelines
and the timetable for the selection of candidates for
Westminster Parliament elections. CLPs shall be
responsible for implementing these guidelines in line
with the rules detailed in Clause I.1 above and
following. CLPs must agree their procedures and
timetable with the appropriate RD(GS) or other
designated officer approved by the NEC.
2. All nominees must fulfil the criteria to stand as a
parliamentary candidate detailed in Clause I.1.B
above. In addition, no person who has been
disqualified as a local government candidate under
the rules of the Party or by the decision of Party
conference shall be eligible for nomination or
selection as a parliamentary candidate. Members of
the European Parliament, Members of the Scottish
parliament and Members of the National Assembly
for Wales may seek nomination as Labour candidates
for the Westminster Parliament but only with the
express permission of the NEC whose decision shall
be final.
3. All nominees shall undertake, if elected, to accept
and comply with the standing orders of the PLP.
4. The NEC may establish a national parliamentary
panel of candidates in the selection procedure
appended to these rules. Nominees do not have to
be members of any national parliamentary panel to
seek selection. Where a national panel is established
by the NEC then candidates recommended by
nationally affiliated organisations through their own
procedures shall automatically be included on the
national panel subject to agreement between the
NEC and the affiliate that their procedures set
similar criteria for accreditation.
5. If a CLP is represented in Parliament by a member of
the PLP:
A. If the sitting MP wishes to stand for re-election,
a trigger ballot will be carried out through Party
units and affiliates according to NEC guidelines.
If the MP wins the trigger ballot he/ she will,
subject to NEC endorsement, be selected as the
CLP’s prospective parliamentary candidate.
B. If the MP fails to win the trigger ballot, he/ she
shall be eligible for nomination for selection as
the prospective parliamentary candidate, and
s/he shall be included in the shortlist of
candidates from whom the selection shall be
made.
C. If the said MP is not selected as the prospective
parliamentary candidate s/he shall have the right
of appeal to the NEC. The appeal can only be
made on the grounds that the procedures laid
down in the rules and the general provisions of
the constitution, rules and standing orders have
not been properly carried out. The appeal must
be received by the NEC by the date on which
they consider endorsement of the parliamentary
candidate for the constituency.
D. When there is a formal announcement of a royal
proclamation to dissolve Parliament before the
trigger ballot or the constituency selection
meeting(s) have been held, the provisions of this
clause (other than this paragraph) shall be
suspended and the said MP shall be reselected
as the prospective parliamentary candidate,
subject to NEC endorsement.
E. If the MP has intimated her or his intention to
retire, the provisions of this clause shall not
apply.
6. In all circumstances (i.e. where there is no MP, where
the MP has announced s/he is retiring or where the
MP is putting themselves forward for re-selection
but has failed to win the trigger ballot) the CLP
Shortlisting Committee shall draw up a shortlist of
interested candidates to present to all members of
the CLP who are eligible to vote in accordance with
Clause I.1.A above.
7. The selection of candidates shall consist of a vote,
by eliminating ballot, of all eligible individual
members of the constituency on the basis of one
member one vote.
8. NEC Endorsement
A. The selection of a parliamentary candidate shall
not be regarded as completed until the name of
the member selected has been placed before a
meeting of the NEC and her or his selection has
been endorsed. Until such endorsement has been
received the member shall not be introduced to
the public as a prospective candidate. Where
successful candidates are not members of the
national recommended panel or if in the case of a
sitting MP a referral from the Whips office is
received, there should, however, be an
endorsement interview in each case before a
recommendation is made to the NEC.
B. If the NEC is satisfied that there is prima facie
evidence of a breach of rules by an individual,
the NEC shall have the right after such
investigations and interviews with the individual
as the NEC shall consider reasonably practicable
and appropriate to decline to endorse or, where
already endorsed, rescind endorsement of such
individual as a prospective parliamentary
candidate.
9. A CLP, having completed the selection of its
prospective parliamentary candidate according to
these rules, shall accept responsibility for the
election expenses of the candidate so selected.
Acceptance of such financial responsibility shall
become binding on the CLP concerned upon NEC
endorsement of the candidature.
10. The normal procedure may be dispensed with by the
NEC where no valid nominations are received, or
when an emergency arises, or when the NEC are of
the opinion that the interests of the Party would be
best served by the suspension of the procedures
issued by the NEC.
11.Disputes arising out of the selection procedure shall
be considered by an officer appointed by the NEC
who shall report to them. The NEC’s decision on that
report shall be final and binding on all parties for all
purposes.
12. Any exceptions to rules 1-11 above can only be
made with the approval of the NEC or an officer
exercising the powers given to them by the NEC.
I can't see why else anyone would oppose immigration. There's no economic rationale for such opposition. It can only be xenophobia, conscious or otherwise.
billy_bob
Air of bewilderment model's own
No, it doesn't per se*, and I didn't mean to suggest it did.
The category 'is concerned about immigration' self-evidently contains both racist and non-racist concern. Yes, to insist that it's all racist would be condescending and simplistic - so yes, certainly unhelpful. But it would be naive or disingenous to deny that a lot of it is. And my point was that, even beyond that who-knows-what-percentage there is a certain amount of anti-EU sentiment that is anti-immigration in a xenophobic way even if it explicitly claims that that isn't it's main concern, because of the pervasive feeling people have, for a variety of reasons, that 'you can't say that'.
I'm not attempting to slur anyone here - just going on extensive experience of having dealt (professionally) with racism and racist views and the way they are manifested in political positions on other issues, including immigration.
*to add in light of phildwyer's post: I think it's about motivations - economic concerns, job and housing insecurities etc. are all real things and can motivate people to believe that immigration is a concern. Even where it can be proved that immigration hasn't negatively affected those things for them - i.e. where their motivation has no basis in fact - it doesn't automatically follow that those people are simply being racist. There's an argument for saying that unless there was some inherent/dormant distrust of the Other there they couldn't be motivated to believe that immigration was the cause of their problems when it isn't - but then you could also argue that that distrust is inherent in all of society, not just these theoretical invididuals...
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Britain needs immigration. Immigrants will generally be of working age, and they will create the wealth that will pay for the pensions and health-care of an aging population. So there will be immigration. The question is: from where?
I suspect that many people supported Brexit because they'd rather see immigrants come from former British colonies than from mainland Europe.
I suspect that many people supported Brexit because they'd rather see immigrants come from former British colonies than from mainland Europe.
Doctor Carrot
Marxist Henchman
Just hearing Tom Watson's sticking the boot in now. Seriously fuck Labour, if they turf him out then they're finished. Who is there who isn't a blairite to replace him?
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
View attachment 88906
So, the unelected Lords are boycotting Corbyn, the Labour leader exercising his mandate. That'll definitely make the membership more amenable.
The dizzy twats
Absoslutely nobody in Labour has twigged that Corbyn is there because the public wants a left-wing labour party have they? The way they're all queueing up to sabotage his leadership just proves that they have no interest in democracy, only in furthering their own project to do...nothing.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
McDonnell. I bet he'd not be shy about kicking the traitors out.
Incidentally, I think one of the reasons for the timing is this: If there's a snap election in the next 6 months, there won't be an opportunity for revenge deselections.
thanks for your reply. I realise this isn't the thread for this topic really so I hope you won't mind if I try to keep this fairly brief and maybe if we continue it could be on that thread about immigration started recently?
I think we're mostly on the same page, but when you say it would be naive to deny that 'a lot' of it is, the question is - how much is that? Most? When ItWillNeverWork said that the campaign was based on racism but the vote wasn't I think that is a fair characterisation on the whole. That is not to minimise in any way that there's a lot of people out there who are frightened, under attack and feeling suddenly more unwelcome, nor that racists feel they have been given 'license' by the result. I don't have any doubt that anti-immigration feeling was a key part of the leave result, every leave voter I've spoken to in person named it as an important reason for their vote.
I'd add though that it's reasonable to be concerned about immigration when your living standards are being driven down, there's a feeling of intensified competition for housing and services and so on. Of course immigrants themselves should not be blamed for that - clearly immigration policy is for the benefit of capital rather than either immigrants or the wider working class (not to mention the other reasons for those problems), but the 'concern' itself is understandable in my view and for millions of those leave voters there's something there we (that is, people of pro-working class politics) surely can work with.
Doctor Carrot
Marxist Henchman
So the public just kick them all in the bollocks for being self serving, out of touch pricks and what do Labour do? React by being self serving, out of touch pricks. Bra-fucking-vo
billy_bob
Air of bewilderment model's own
Understandable, but not necessarily reasonable. Of course, when you're angry/scared you're more suggestible, and there are plenty in politics and the media for whom it's very helpful to have immigration blamed for these things. Whether that's because they're racist themselves or because they benefit from the economic status quo and aren't personally affected by the racist side-effects doesn't make much difference in practice, really. We could optimistically hope that the referendum fallout leads to more people realising either that (i) 'sovereignty' doesn't help us 'control' immigration or (ii) it does, but reducing immigration still doesn't make their lives any better, and therefore opening up the possibility of a more progressive, less insular consensus in future. Not holding my breath.
It might be understandable, but it's not reasonable. Immigration always benefits the host society.
But even if it didn't: (a) the idea of a government being able to control the travels of an individual is inherently repugnant. And (b) there's no reason to advocate benefits for British workers at the expense of foreign workers, other than xenophobia.
Lord Camomile
Yipchaa!
Just the members and trade unions, then.
(You assume, would be interesting to see what the members do currently think...)
Artaxerxes
Look out, he's got a gnu!
Look Labour, look at the Tories. This is what you should be trying to top.
You fucks. Corbyn may not be the best leader and have his major faults but the country is staring at the biggest fuck up and shake up in decades and your busy backstabbing each other. Get a grip.
You fucks. Corbyn may not be the best leader and have his major faults but the country is staring at the biggest fuck up and shake up in decades and your busy backstabbing each other. Get a grip.
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