Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

[The39thStep]

I was just answering what I assumed was a friendly question.

And I gave you a friendly reply .

 

[Silas Loom]

And I gave you a friendly reply .

Cheers, pal.

 

[andysays]

Ooh, is someone going to say "mate" now?

 

[The39thStep]

Ooh, is someone going to say "mate" now?

Bro

 

[andysays]

Bro

OK, Fam...

 

[brogdale]

Imagine my surprise
View attachment 425906

Saw clip of Nargund on the news where the only words he said were "I'm a young entrepreneur."

 

[Silas Loom]

Saw clip of Nargund on the news where the only words he said were "I'm a young entrepreneur."

The clinics are his mum’s, anyway.

 

[brogdale]

The clinics are his mum’s, anyway.

An even bigger blowhard cock, then. Can see why New, New Labour picked him

 

[Rob Ray]

One one level I do respect his commitment to the bit. I think he'll be saying the same thing in the same tone til the day he dies.

 

[Gramsci]

Interesting that Silas Loom and kebabking only objected to the foreign and defence aspects of Corbynism. While I am much closer to Corbyn on those I do think that was clearly an albatross around the leadership's neck and if we're ever going to have a left leaning government, reluctantly I think that's where principles will just have to be put on the back burner for a chance at power.

I voted for Corbyn led party last election.

A quick look at the foreign policy and defence side of it and it does not seem to me to be so off the wall to be discredited.

It would give those who get red in face over Wokeness something to go on about. But it does say two percent of GDP for defence for example.

And as I've been reading more of history of British Empire again I think the idea audit of colonial legacy is not before time.

On an aside I've been reading military history of the putting down of the revolt in Palestine in the 1930s by Britain and its an eye opener on how British armed services/ government conducted counter insurgency campaigns. And that by a historian who is even handed. Not a raving lefty.

I get your point. Corbyn was mercilessly attacked for not being patriotic enough. If that means supporting this countries quite appalling imperial history I'm not patriotic. Or patriotism needs to be redefined.

I can see what you are getting at on pragmatic level.

Labour manifesto: what it says and what it means

Guardian specialists break down the detail on pledges from Brexit to housing

www.theguardian.com

• war powers act would be introduced to prevent a prime minister bypassing parliament when trying to take the country to war.
• An audit of the impact of Britain’s colonial legacy would be carried out.
• Also promised are a judge-led inquiry into alleged complicity in rendition and torture; a formal apology for Britain’s role in the Amritsar massacre; allowing the people of the Chagos Islands and their descendants the right to return to their lands; upholding the human rights of the people of West Papua; and recognising the rights of the people of Western Sahara.
• Labour would commit to spending at least 2% of GDP on defence and initiate a strategic defence and security review.
• Full commitment to a standalone Department for International Development (DfID) with an aid budget of at least 0.7% of gross national income.

Labour wants “to understand our contribution to the dynamics of violence and insecurity” in its review of the legacy of the British empire – a commitment designed to more broadly inform foreign policy thinking under a Labour government.


The policy is set against what Corbyn views as a “bomb first, talk later” approach to global security, and is intended to amplify the party leader’s long-established distinctive positioning on foreign policy, which has seen him consistently oppose military intervention abroad, most notably in Iraq in 2003. Dan Sabbagh

 

[Gramsci]

Jamie Driscoll lost recently whilst getting a decent vote. Mayor in north of England. Successful track record. No re selected for factional reasons. Stood as Independent. Lost to official Labour candidate.

Unfortunately I'm wondering if this next election people will tick the Labour box to get discredited Tories out. As that is the main thing at this time.

So scenario could be that JC gets decent vote but loses.

 

[lazythursday]

I voted for Corbyn led party last election.

A quick look at the foreign policy and defence side of it and it does not seem to me to be so off the wall to be discredited.

It would give those who get red in face over Wokeness something to go on about. But it does say two percent of GDP for defence for example.

And as I've been reading more of history of British Empire again I think the idea audit of colonial legacy is not before time.

On an aside I've been reading military history of the putting down of the revolt in Palestine in the 1930s by Britain and its an eye opener on how British armed services/ government conducted counter insurgency campaigns. And that by a historian who is even handed. Not a raving lefty.

I get your point. Corbyn was mercilessly attacked for not being patriotic enough. If that means supporting this countries quite appalling imperial history I'm not patriotic. Or patriotism needs to be redefined.

I can see what you are getting at on pragmatic level.

Labour manifesto: what it says and what it means

Guardian specialists break down the detail on pledges from Brexit to housing

www.theguardian.com

Corbyn's biggest problem was his perceived pacifism. Maybe a left wing leader who was a bit more macho about defence could take on some of the historical stuff / pursue a different path globally. They would need a really hard headed strategy and some military types on board.

 

[Gramsci]

Corbyn's biggest problem was his perceived pacifism. Maybe a left wing leader who was a bit more macho about defence could take on some of the historical stuff / pursue a different path globally. They would need a really hard headed strategy and some military types on board.

And what would this alternative to perceived pacifism that's hard headed and advised by military types look like?

I didn't think Corbyn was a pacifist.

Can you point to where it says in last manifesto that labour party is a pacifist organisation?

 

[lazythursday]

And what would this alternative to perceived pacifism that's hard headed and advised by military types look like?

I didn't think Corbyn was a pacifist.

Can you point to where it says in last manifesto that labour party is a pacifist organisation?

I dunno what it would look like. It's just clear that defence / foreign policy under Corbyn was a deal breaker for a lot of people. There must be an alternative that addresses people's need for security and patriotism without being slavishly pro-American / Israel.

I said Corbyn was perceived as pacifist, not that he was. He wouldn't say the he would press the button and nuke the Russians if necessary.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

He wouldn't say the he would press the button and nuke the Russians if necessary.

What an absolute cunt!

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Mation]

Don't think I could have held my nose hard enough to stomach voting Labour this time, even if Corbyn were the candidate, and I don't think there'll be anyone/thing else I actively want, so wouldn't have voted at all.

Very glad he's standing as an independent. I will vote for him!

 

[Gramsci]

I dunno what it would look like. It's just clear that defence / foreign policy under Corbyn was a deal breaker for a lot of people. There must be an alternative that addresses people's need for security and patriotism without being slavishly pro-American / Israel.

I said Corbyn was perceived as pacifist, not that he was. He wouldn't say the he would press the button and nuke the Russians if necessary.

From what I remember of Corbyn period , as previous posts on this thread have said, he got stick on not being "patriotic" enough which meant defence.

From what I've read of later British empire he comes from the Fenner Brockway Movement for Colonial Freedom minority in the party tradition

Who were highly critical of foreign policy of post war labour and Tory governments ( we still had empire post war).

His view on defence and foreign policy would be working within the post WW2 legacy of international law and international body of the UN.

That I would have thought is entirely reasonable. What we fought WW2 for?

So his view is that military action is last resort and should be done under auspices of UN.

ie not just western powers.

What gets me is that Tony Blair whose disastrous involvement in Iraq doesn't get the same level of attack that Corbyn has.

On a personal level I've worked with ex sqaddies who have been in Afghanistan. Both have PTSD and various problems since serving in military in real action.

It's all very well for armchair generals to deride a "pacifist" like Corbyn but then they haven't been in real wars

War is nasty and brutal. That's just how it is.

Was Corbyn being so unpatriotic by thinking twice about military interventions involving this country?

I don't think so.

It's looking for international security with context of international law and international body of UN.

 

[Gramsci]

I dunno what it would look like. It's just clear that defence / foreign policy under Corbyn was a deal breaker for a lot of people. There must be an alternative that addresses people's need for security and patriotism without being slavishly pro-American / Israel.

I said Corbyn was perceived as pacifist, not that he was. He wouldn't say the he would press the button and nuke the Russians if necessary.

Not having a go at you here.

This is correct. It's what Starmer has learnt. If you don't follow whatever US president says or "defend" Israel you are going to be mercilessly attacked for not holding security of this country dear

And I kind of agree with you. It's that I think any politician who questions this is going to be hammered.

That said what is happening in Gaza and the protests here about it show at least a significant section of public here don't buy this foreign policy consensus between labour and Tories

 

[Raheem]

I don't see much wrong with Corbyn's politics as expressed burning his leadership. The most worrying thing was his openness to crankery (eg alternative medicine), which is the sort of thing that can lead almost anywhere.

But he was a rubbish politician. Refusing to sing the national anthem is brilliant politics if you are doing it in school assembly. Ambivalence about shooting terrorists who are partway through a massacre is plain stupid. Inviting Hamas to the House of Commons for Holocaust Remembrance Day is fucking awful, even if he wasn't leader then.

His greatest sin was making himself so easy to fuck over.

 

[Gramsci]

I don't see much wrong with Corbyn's politics as expressed burning his leadership. The most worrying thing was his openness to crankery (eg alternative medicine), which is the sort of thing that can lead almost anywhere.

But he was a rubbish politician. Refusing to sing the national anthem is brilliant politics if you are doing it in school assembly. Ambivalence about shooting terrorists who are partway through a massacre is plain stupid. Inviting Hamas to the House of Commons for Holocaust Remembrance Day is fucking awful, even if he wasn't leader then.

His greatest sin was making himself so easy to fuck over.

I passed 11 plus and another exam and got free place in one of the minor public schools.

From the start I had "patriotism" stuffed down my throat.

Not singing the national anthem/ not being in the CCF/ would have consequences.

I object to eliding crankery with lack of patriotism.

One thing I learnt from being with schooled with my betters is that the real "cranks" are the ruling classes and the middle class hangers on

Question I ask is how "cranks" on the right can get away with it ?

Reading history and it amazes me they did.

 

[hitmouse]

Have British cops ever successfully shot any terrorists who were partway through a massacre, or do they just shoot Brazilian electricians who look a bit Muslim? Either way, I think the actual track record of real cops who exist in the world is, at best, sufficiently mixed that ambivalence about them shooting people is entirely justified.

ETA: looking into it, sounds like they did in fact do that at London Bridge, which I'd forgotten about. But then on the other hand, there is also a fair bit of history of stuff like this: Shoot-to-kill evidence destroyed

 

[Gramsci]

I think it was about talking to terrorists like Hamas.

So Starmer saying it's ok to cut off water etc is different. That's being grown up and electable.

Unlike Corbyn.

 

[Pickman's model]

Have British cops ever successfully shot any terrorists who were partway through a massacre, or do they just shoot Brazilian electricians who look a bit Muslim? Either way, I think the actual trac record of real cops who exist in the world is, at best, sufficiently mixed that ambivalence about them shooting people is entirely justified.

ETA: looking into it, sounds like they did in fact do that at London Bridge, which I'd forgotten about. But then on the other hand, there is also a fair bit of history of stuff like this: Shoot-to-kill evidence destroyed

Twice at London Bridge I think you'll find - or once on London Bridge and one in borough

 

[Raheem]

I passed 11 plus and another exam and got free place in one of the minor public schools.

From the start I had "patriotism" stuffed down my throat.

Not singing the national anthem/ not being in the CCF/ would have consequences.

I object to eliding crankery with lack of patriotism.

One thing I learnt from being with schooled with my betters is that the real "cranks" are the ruling classes and the middle class hangers on

Question I ask is how "cranks" on the right can get away with it ?

Reading history and it amazes me they did.

I don't really get why you're contrasting Corbyn to privately-educated cranks. If Corbyn is a crank (which I didn't actually say, although he probably is a bit), then he's a privately-educated crank.

 

[Gramsci]

I don't really get why you're contrasting Corbyn to privately-educated cranks. If Corbyn is a crank (which I didn't actually say, although he probably is a bit), then he's a privately-educated crank.

Its that ruling class do not get labelled easily in this way whilst someone who doesn't agree with ruling class values easily does. As these values are the norm.

 

[Raheem]

Its that ruling class do not get labelled easily in this way whilst someone who doesn't agree with ruling class values easily does. As these values are the norm.

You don't think Rees-Mogg is widely considered a crank?

 

[Gramsci]

You don't think Rees-Mogg is widely considered a crank?

Has he been hounded and pilloried in way Corbyn has?

No

 

[freshapple]

I don't really get why you're contrasting Corbyn to privately-educated cranks. If Corbyn is a crank (which I didn't actually say, although he probably is a bit), then he's a privately-educated crank.

Him & his brother

 

[Raheem]

Has he been hounded and pilloried in way Corbyn has?

No

That's a different question though, isn't it? I never hounded or pilloried Corbyn. I even voted for him. But I think I'm allowed not to demur on the idea that wanting homeopathy on the NHS is problematic in a Labour leader.

It's a small piece of the picture, granted.

 

[tim]

Him & his brother

The brother who should have been Labour Leader.