Israel. The real reason for the attack

[Spion]

If there were shootings from above as the IDF choppered in that should show up in the autopsy reports. That's the most cast iron evidence you could get - tho only of shots from the choppers, not of a plan from the outset to kill a load of people. ISTR the reports only talk of very close range shots often from behind, however, tho i could be wrong.

It's all pretty irrelevant tho - the Israelis clearly planned to illegally seize a ship in international waters and however it panned out they shot a number of people in the back in the process

 

[Diamond]

Of course it matters. If this was planned.It means the Israeli government didn't merely fuck up. It means the Israeli government sat down and drew up plans to deliberately kill citizens of foreign nations in international waters. To attack a ship sailing under a foreign flag and kill citizens of a NATO member state. In effect it was an act of war

It also begs the question I posed in the OP, why?

And it indicates a much wider strategic plan and one that suggests this is the first act in a deliberately engineered drama that is still unfolding.

I know you're going to have a go about sources again but just read those last two sentences.

You're sailing very close to the wind in terms of outlining some grand conspiracy.

There's nothing on the facts that suggests the need for any conspiracy to explain events either.

 

[frogwoman]

The two people from bristol who came home yesterday have both said clearly and repeatedly they were fired upon before being boarded.

yep.

 

[frogwoman]

I know you're going to have a go about sources again but just read those last two sentences.

You're sailing very close to the wind in terms of outlining some grand conspiracy.

There's nothing on the facts that suggests the need for any conspiracy to explain events either.

Suggesting that the attack was deliberate rather than a fuck up - and don't forget, Israel has form for this - is hardly outlining a conspiracy theory.

 

[Diamond]

Suggesting that the attack was deliberate rather than a fuck up - and don't forget, Israel has form for this - is hardly outlining a conspiracy theory.

"a much wider strategic plan" which is a "deliberately engineered drama"?

 

[Spion]

Suggesting that the attack was deliberate rather than a fuck up - and don't forget, Israel has form for this - is hardly outlining a conspiracy theory.

that the attack - in the sense of Israel trying to seize those ships - was deliberate is not at issue. What is not proven, IMO, is that they planned to kill a bunch of people.

I'm not saying they are not capable, but I'm not convinced that what resulted here was the desired outcome of a plan

 

[agricola]

Of course it matters. If this was planned.It means the Israeli government didn't merely fuck up. It means the Israeli government sat down and drew up plans to deliberately kill citizens of foreign nations in international waters. To attack a ship sailing under a foreign flag and kill citizens of a NATO member state. In effect it was an act of war

It also begs the question I posed in the OP, why?

Look, if there were live rounds fired from the helicopters as part of a deliberate, pre-planned policy of killing people aboard ship (ie: before the troops landed aboard), combined with targetted killings of certain people, then we would have seen:

i) there would have been a lot more deaths;
ii) they would not have landed on the ship into a mob - they would have just shot the mob up from the helicopters;
iii) the people on the "death list" would be dead - as it is, it seems that none of them are (which strongly suggests that the list was just a collection of names and images of "prominent" people in the protest, just as exists in the UK at demos);
iv) they would have killed people on the other boats as well.

Of course, none of the above should suggest that the raid was legal, that the blockade is legal or indeed that the killings that did occur were legal - its just when people advance theories which do not fit with the available evidence (both from the protest and the IDF) it allows the likes of Regev and the trolls here cover to hide behind.

 

[dylans]

"a much wider strategic plan" which is a "deliberately engineered drama"?

You do agree that Israel boarded ships in international waters and killed people right?

Because in your determination to disregard ANY purpose in the Israeli action you are getting pretty close to claiming it didn't happen at all.

So, as others have pointed out, regardless of the circumstances of the deaths, this did occur. There was a decision to illegally board a ship in international waters with commandos. That was a cabinet level decision to take that action, (what you call a "conspiracy")

So questioning the Israeli governments motivation for doing so is legitimate. Or do you wish to dismiss any conjecture about the motives for the attack as "conspiracy theory?"

Even if the motive was simply to intimidate future flotilla's then it was a political decision made for strategic reasons, is that conspiracy theory too?

 

[danny la rouge]

The Israeli state has previous in apparently provoking convenient responses, enabling it to follow policies it wanted to follow. Like repelling peace offensives, and so on. For example, many analysts believe the 2nd Intifada (which, began, like he first, as an overwhelmingly non-violent resistence movement) was deliberately inflamed by a brutal and lethal crackdown on the initial peaceful protests.

Killing activists is nothing new. Alan Dershowitz has said Israel only kills terrorists. Therefore, by definition, anyone killed by Israel is a terrorist. This shows you the kind of mindset we're dealing with.

It may have been a strategy, or it may just have been the ultra-Zionist response to opposition.

 

[dylans]

Look, if there were live rounds fired from the helicopters as part of a deliberate, pre-planned policy of killing people aboard ship (ie: before the troops landed aboard), combined with targetted killings of certain people, then we would have seen:

i) there would have been a lot more deaths;
ii) they would not have landed on the ship into a mob - they would have just shot the mob up from the helicopters;
iii) the people on the "death list" would be dead - as it is, it seems that none of them are (which strongly suggests that the list was just a collection of names and images of "prominent" people in the protest, just as exists in the UK at demos);
iv) they would have killed people on the other boats as well.

Of course, none of the above should suggest that the raid was legal, that the blockade is legal or indeed that the killings that did occur were legal - its just when people advance theories which do not fit with the available evidence (both from the protest and the IDF) it allows the likes of Regev and the trolls here cover to hide behind.

I respect this, and spions argument too.

These are arguments about facts and evidence. About what actually happened. And of course, the evidence may prove me completely wrong. However at present I don't see the evidence doing that.In fact I think the witness testimony is increasingly suggesting my view is correct.

 

[laptop]

However at present I don't see the evidence doing that. In fact I think the witness testimony is increasingly suggesting my view is correct.

Trouble is, the evidence that would distinguish your hypothesis from this:

Yes, the state of Israel will do anything - anything - to avert the threat of peace.

Yes, there were a number of things that the state of Israel needed to distract attention from: the NPT conference; the South African nuke sales pitch; the passports issue (not gone away, just gone from 24-hour-news time into government time)...

Quite possibly, policy was handed down to "deal with the flotilla 'forcefully'" and that percolated down the ranks as things do.

But I still estimate that it's vastly more probable that, when Defense Minister Ehud Barak first heard about what happened to the convoy, his first thought was "oh fuck" than that it was "job done".

...would be the transcript of a meeting where intention was made clear.

 

[dylans]

Trouble is, the evidence that would distinguish your hypothesis from this:



...would be the transcript of a meeting where intention was made clear.

Well yes and further release of film footage too but they are not going to happen of course.

However all witness evidence that the troops went in shooting strengthens my argument and likewise any evidence that the shootings occurred during or after fighting, weakens it

 

[Diamond]

You do agree that Israel boarded ships in international waters and killed people right?

Because in your determination to disregard ANY purpose in the Israeli action you are getting pretty close to claiming it didn't happen at all.

So, as others have pointed out, regardless of the circumstances of the deaths, this did occur. There was a decision to illegally board a ship in international waters with commandos. That was a cabinet level decision to take that action, (what you call a "conspiracy")

So questioning the Israeli governments motivation for doing so is legitimate. Or do you wish to dismiss any conjecture about the motives for the attack as "conspiracy theory?"

Even if the motive was simply to intimidate future flotilla's then it was a political decision made for strategic reasons, is that conspiracy theory too?

This is such nonsense.

Are you only capable of veering from wild claim to another?

 

[dylans]

This is such nonsense.

Are you only capable of veering from wild claim to another?

whereas you make no claim whatsoever. You are content to sneer from the sidelines because you are too cowardly to say what you really think. Pathetic

 

[Captain Hurrah]

Do you really think the decision to kill was cabinet-level, or was it that when the commandos met resistance they then thought right you fuckers have some of this.

 

[dylans]

Do you really think the decision to kill was cabinet-level, or was it that when the commandos met resistance they then thought right you fuckers have some of this.

That's the million shekel question isn't it. That's why it is important to find out when the firing started.

If the passengers were fired on before the ship was boarded (as some witnesses are claiming ) then that indicates a decision to kill
If firing began when the troops met resistance than it indicates an operation that went wrong

 

[audiotech]

Iranian TV Airs Video Purportedly of Missing Scientist.

Iranian state television has aired a video showing what it says is an Iranian nuclear scientist. The video allegedly shows Shahram Amiri, a university researcher working for Iran’s Atomic Energy Organization who disappeared during a pilgrimage to Saudi Arabia a year ago. In the video, Amiri claims he had been kidnapped and taken to the United States where he was tortured. Iranian television said the video had been passed to members of the country’s intelligence agency, but did not give details of how this was done. In March, ABC News said Amiri had defected to the United States and was helping the CIA.

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/8/headlines#11

 

[Captain Hurrah]

Well, that is why I'm a bit dubious about some premeditated murder plan cooked up at high levels of government for this specific case. Seems the commandos got trigger happy when they saw things weren't going nicely. Even with the recently released pics, used cynically by the Israeli government, it was a humiliating experience for the army.

 

[agricola]

Do you really think the decision to kill was cabinet-level, or was it that when the commandos met resistance they then thought right you fuckers have some of this.

I think the decision to conduct the first part of the raid was insisted upon at cabinet level, probably against military advice, and that the second part where it appears that people were shot was a response to the failure of the first, and was taken by the commanders on scene.

As a result, one imagines that the Israeli cabinet are, to a degree, delighted that this has become Israel vs the World as it probably detracts from their own near-total responsibility for the situation happening.

 

[Captain Hurrah]

I think the decision to conduct the first part of the raid was insisted upon at cabinet level, probably against military advice, and that the second part where it appears that people were shot was a response to the failure of the first, and was taken by the commanders on scene.

Seems sensible.

 

[elbows]

Iranian TV Airs Video Purportedly of Missing Scientist.

Oh its much weirder/murkier than that because there are 2 videos of 'him' that say different things and both are a bit dodgy in different ways:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10264193.stm

A video broadcast by Iranian TV purports to show Mr Amiri saying he was kidnapped and is living in Arizona.

Hours later, another video posted on YouTube appeared to show the scientist saying he was happy in America. The US denied abducting him.

Neither video is entirely convincing. The Iranian government version is poor quality, with the possibility that it has been manipulated.

In the YouTube video, the man is looking beyond the camera, apparently reading a not very well written script.

 

[dylans]

When I first saw this I didn't pay mich attention but then I looked a little closer and dug around a bit and found this

The ABC claim that he defected here


His claim that he was kidnapped here. (in farsi)



Then a bit more digging and I found what claims to be a translation. Now I have no idea if this is an accurate translation but fwiw here it is

Today is 17th of Farvardin 1389 (April 5, 2010)... right now I, Shahram Amiri, professional (expert) and researcher of the University of Malek Ashtar am in Tucson Arizona USA.

I was kidnaped on 13th of Khorad 1388 (May 3, 2009) in a joint operation of Terror and Kidnaping teams of the Intelligent Services of CIA and Estekbarat? of Saudi Arabia.

I was transferred to an unknowable (unknown) house in Saudi Arabia. Inside this house I was injected with drugs for making me unconscious. When I woke up I was next to a Big American person on my way to USA.

During the eight months that I was kept in USA I was subjected to severe torture and psychological pressures by Interrogation teams of US Intelligent Agencies. The main aim of the pressures by these teams ...by torturing me....in fact the objective was ....they were demanding I should take part in a TV interview with one of the US News Services....and confirm (claim) that I am an important verification of the Iranian Nuclear Program...and....I defected to USA with my own request....and...in this message of defection I carry a series of very important documents and credentials from my country together with a Laptop (computer) that contains secret document of Iranian Military Nuclear Program.

The main goal of all this is to exert political pressure on Islamic Republic of Iran...in fact...convict (condemn) Iran.....also proving (verifying) these lies that US is continuously presenting against Iran.
Here I ask the Human Rights Organizations and those who are involved in freeing the captives kept in foreign countries to take this case....in fact I was unjustly kidnaped from a third country and was brought to USA. My request is to use all their power and influence (actions) in order to free me.. facilitating my return to my beloved country of Iran.

Now I direct my message to my endearing family.......if one day....really they see this (video) and hear my last words...I ask them to be patient.

I'm not sure what to make of this tbh

 

[dylans]

3 more articles here that come to the same conclusions as myself.

The raid was no accident. All the signs are that Israel has been stepping up its provocations to engineer a casus belli for a war against Hamas in Gaza and Hezbollah in Lebanon. Tel Aviv sees as unfinished business its inconclusive wars: the first in Lebanon in 2006, and the second in Gaza in 2008-09.

The military assault on the convoy was approved by Israel’s inner security cabinet, headed by Ehud Barak, the Defence Minister. The IDF confirmed this saying, “This IDF naval operation was carried out under orders from the political leadership...”

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=19509

Simsek said they expected some harassment from the Israeli forces but did not expect an armed attack.

He went on to say that he witnessed that the person who waived the white flag to surrender was shot by the Israeli troops.

Erol Demir, another activist who was on the Turkish ship Mavi Marmara, said there is film footage of the chaos and the carnage on the ship and stated that the footage will show the real face of the Israeli military to the entire world.

“They even shot those who surrendered. Many of our friends saw this. They told me that there were handcuffed people who were shot,” he added.

Hakan Albayrak, a journalist from the Turkish daily Yeni Safak who was also on the ship, said, “It was an outright massacre what Israel did out there. They attacked us in international waters… We had no weapons. I think we lost more people.”

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=129190&sectionid=351020202

The attack on the Freedom Flotilla, might appear as a separate and distinct humanitiarian issue, unrelated to US-Israeli war plans. But from the standpoint of both Tel Aviv and Washington, it is part of the broader military agenda. It is intended to create conditions favoring an atmosphere of confrontation and escalation in the Middle East war theater;

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=19573

Also Al Jaeera footage here. Clearly shows that the Israeli's opened fire before boarding the ship.
http://www.youtube.com/user/WilliamTomg

There are also many people still in critical condition in Israeli hospitals and at least 3 people who are missing and unaccounted for

 

[ViolentPanda]

Do you really think the decision to kill was cabinet-level, or was it that when the commandos met resistance they then thought right you fuckers have some of this.

It could have been, and in other cases it has come from Cabinet level.
Thing is, we're not talking about conscripts here, we're talking about professional soldiers who would be vanishingly unlikely (if they have even half the professionalism they lay claim to) to take any action outside of the remit issued to them. Whether their remit originated at Cabinet level, or at the level of IDF General Staff is what needs to be determined.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well, that is why I'm a bit dubious about some premeditated murder plan cooked up at high levels of government for this specific case. Seems the commandos got trigger happy when they saw things weren't going nicely. Even with the recently released pics, used cynically by the Israeli government, it was a humiliating experience for the army.

Well, it's accurate to say that some operations in European countries are authorised by ministers rather than by the military hierarchy, especially when there are political implications. Whether this holds true for the IDF and the state of Israel, I'm not sure.

 

[kyser_soze]

3 more articles here that come to the same conclusions as myself.

<snip>

Not being funny, but GR is as biased a press source with an agenda as anywhere else.

 

[dylans]

Not being funny, but GR is as biased a press source with an agenda as anywhere else.

Well apart from the fact that was only one of 3 sources I quoted. What is biased or partisan about GR?
Not saying you are wrong but how is it any more biased than any other source?

I thought they were a source of some great articles and independent news etc.

 

[kyser_soze]

It's actually 2 of the sources, and it's pretty clear that it's got a strong political agenda of it's own. As does Al-Jaz.

Not saying it's any more or less biased, just that saying that a website that gives a lot of space to the likes of David Ray Griffin isn't one I'd be waving around in support of wilder ideas about long term planning by the Israelis about this.

 

[dylans]

It's actually 2 of the sources, and it's pretty clear that it's got a strong political agenda of it's own. As does Al-Jaz.

Not saying it's any more or less biased, just that saying that a website that gives a lot of space to the likes of David Ray Griffin isn't one I'd be waving around in support of wilder ideas about long term planning by the Israelis about this.

Yeah fair enough but that stuff is just a small part of a pretty impressive archive of material they have from a wide range of authors such as Uri Avnery, Chomsky etc. They also have a good news archive of materials from other sources. I think it's unfair to suggest they are a conspiroloon site on the basis that they archive material by those nuts. They do alongside thousands and thousands of others.

ince 2001, Global Research has established an international network of authors, scholars and investigative journalists. Global Research counts among its regular contributors a number of prominent writers, researchers and academics as well as several promising young authors. Many Global Research authors have developed their own blog sites. Our focus has been to support our authors' blog sites, while also promoting several partner aternative media websites.

The Global Research archive (2001-2010) includes more than 15,000 articles and news reports. Our data bank (2005-2010) includes a classification by author, and by country. Also of interest is an archive of audio-video material.

Global Research is classified among the top 50 Alternative News Sources by www.World-Newspapers.com, Global Research is also recommended as a resource by the American Library Association (ALA).

In 2008, Global Research was awarded The First National Prize of the Mexican Press Club, for the "Best Research Website" at the international level.

In the course of the last few years, several Global Research authors have received awards for their writings.

Global Research has become one of the main alternative media websites in North America. While Global Research operates on a shoe string budget compared to the well-endowed establishment think tanks, it has more readers than the powerful Council on Foreign Relations (CFR).

Also I think if you look at all the sources I have cited for my posts on this thread, the majority of them are probably Israeli

 

[Captain Hurrah]

It could have been, and in other cases it has come from Cabinet level.
Thing is, we're not talking about conscripts here, we're talking about professional soldiers who would be vanishingly unlikely (if they have even half the professionalism they lay claim to) to take any action outside of the remit issued to them. Whether their remit originated at Cabinet level, or at the level of IDF General Staff is what needs to be determined.

Yes, I agree it is just speculation at the moment, and I know those dropped in weren't just conscripts but supposedly highly-trained commandos.