Is this woman a transphobe?
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Sweet FA
✪ Three rounds Lord, in my .44 ✪
I think I'm now done with threads connected with trans issues; this thread is disgusting and painful to read for many reasons. dylans and his weird cock-waving, changing room fantasy just sends us back to the same hateful shit that was spread all over the other threads.
My gender precludes me from understanding fully the implications but my experience with trans issues is of dealing with depressed and vulnerable children. I do not recognise the predatory bogeyman who stalks these conversations. Instead I see children with scars all over their minds and bodies. I see them turning to sources on the web which are destructive and harmful but who talk their language and who give them an outlet for their anger and anxiety.
The only positive aspect of any of it is that The Kids are so far ahead of us old cunts, it's untrue. The conversations they have & their empathy and understanding puts most of us to shame. dylans, most young people would point and laugh at you, you fucking dinosaur.
Hats off to smokedout and others who continue to respond to some vile, hurtful and disrespectful shit with patience and dignity.
My gender precludes me from understanding fully the implications but my experience with trans issues is of dealing with depressed and vulnerable children. I do not recognise the predatory bogeyman who stalks these conversations. Instead I see children with scars all over their minds and bodies. I see them turning to sources on the web which are destructive and harmful but who talk their language and who give them an outlet for their anger and anxiety.
The only positive aspect of any of it is that The Kids are so far ahead of us old cunts, it's untrue. The conversations they have & their empathy and understanding puts most of us to shame. dylans, most young people would point and laugh at you, you fucking dinosaur.
Hats off to smokedout and others who continue to respond to some vile, hurtful and disrespectful shit with patience and dignity.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
In your view is the fact that a trans woman is subject to a risk assessment, when being considered for admission to a women's prison, wrong and transphobic? Or is it the case that the risk assessment that is done, is the same one that is done for all potential prisoners whether they are trans or not? Is the risk assessed without regard to the fact that they are a trans woman?
ginger_syn
Her Insanity laughs under pressure...👾
I have been on the receiving end of that, i blame the men who did that to me no one else, well the culture that let it happen but never trans people I've never met or the ones i have.
There are available solutions to keep transwomen safe which do not involve shitting all over women's tiny precious rights to have a guaranteed freedom from male violence, harassment, rape, murder. We should have been allies but somehow, it doesn't seem to have worked out that way. I fail to see why I should have to be forced to engage with male hormones, male genitals or male fists. I fucking know what violence feels like and I am not remotely interested in the replies of men on these boards since this is one argument that they have nothing of worth or value to say to me,, thanks..
Raheem
Well-Known Member
The difficulty with that is that, if the goal is to protect cis women from assault and harassment, then making them share toilets and changing rooms with cis men doesn't seem an obvious way of achieving it.
I think we may have hit upon a red herring.
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I think an assessment above and beyond the usual risk assessments undertaken before placing all prisoners is reasonable and important. I don't think Karen White should have been in the general population in a woman's prison and in fact the MoJ admitted this was a mistake, ie policy wasn't followed, not that policy was wrong.
The criteria used for assessing the potential risks of placing a trans women in a women's prison are as follows:
Potential risks presented by the individual to others in custody and an AP related to:
(*indicates critical factors)
• *Offending history, including index offence, past convictions and intelligence of
potential criminal activity- e.g. credible accusations.
• *Anatomy, including considerations of physical strength and genitalia;
• * Sexual behaviours and relationships within custodial/residential settings;
• *Use of medication relating to gender reassignment; and use of medication generally;
• *Past behaviour in custody, the community, in the care of the police, or in the care of
prisoner escort services;
• *Intelligence reports;
• *Evidence of threats towards others
• *Mental health and personality disorder;
• Learning disabilities or difficulties;
• Substance misuse.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
The thing is that there are lots of examples on this thread, and in these discusions generally, where people are told they are transphobic if they want to make judgements about people, including their risk of doing certain things, based on their physical anatomy. But it sounds like that's exactly what's being done in these prison assessments - so why in that case is it "reasonable and important" rather than transphobic? Is it all down to relative levels of risk and magnitude of consequence? If so, then fair enough perhaps, but then it doesn't seem to make any sense to have this black and white approach to what is transphobia rather than "reasonable and important" questions or worries.
Can you point to some examples on this thread of people being accused of transphobia "if they want to make judgements about people, including their risk of doing certain things, based on their physical anatomy."
There is transphobia on this thread. Minimising or dismissing trans people's fears of sexual violence as being about comfort or convenience or validation I would say is deeply transphobic. As are stupid comments about people waving their genitals about. I'd go further and say that the insistence that something is hugely dangerous, such as trans inclusion in toilets, when we have ample evidence that is not the case is probably rooted in latent transphobia. I think concerns about trans women in prison overiding concerns about male screws, despite numerous horrific events, are probably bordering on transphobia - trans women are held to a different standard than cis men despite also being the victims of gender based violence. But I've not seen anyone accused of transphobia merely for questioning the risks of certain situations. That seems perfectly sensible to me. How those questions are asked, and how any evidence is evaluated, and what conclusions should be drawn is where transphobia may come into play.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Has anyone on this thread accused them of being tranphobic for posting this? If not then what is the purpose of your posts. I am not responsible for the views of every other trans person or trans ally. Sometimes trans people even disagree.
Just an observation. It sometimes feels a bit like cis men are telling women what they should and shouldn't be doing or accepting and why they're wrong. I suspect it's unwitting but it can put people's backs up, especially as it feels cis men have less skin in the game than cis women and trans folks.
I can only imagine.
It's obviously a complex issue and working out how to balance the different rights and risks on all sides is really difficult.I do think though that most people are intrinsically reasonable and want to do the right thing and with a bit more thought and reasoned discussion on all sides, we could start coming up with solutions for some of these issues. But given women often don't feel like cis men are listening to them about a whole load of stuff, I think cis men butting out a bit while these debates are had would be helpful. (Maybe I'm just a hopeless optimist though...)
teuchter
je suis teuchter
I am trying to understand what the general view is, on whether it is OK to take someone's physical anatomy (and the history of any changes to it during their life) into account when deciding what they should have access to, or what protections they should be offered. Because sometimes it seems that to some people it's not acceptable at all. Seeing as all sides of this discussion seem prone to making a lot of assumptions about the views of those they disagree with, it would be useful to know if that's really just a fringe view, or not. I don't expect every trans person or trans ally to agree on everything nor do I expect you to speak for them.
putting whole thread on ignore - shouldn't get pulled into this. I have no animosity towards transwomen or transmen but am just an older woman who is deeply nervous and anxious around men. I hate these conflicts and divisions but I do have a deep visceral anxiety which has followed me throughout my entire adult life, eviscerating vast areas of human experience. Just want to be left alone.
Some cis men think trans women are perverted degenerates who should be locked up or murdered. Seeing as all sides of this discussion seem prone to making a lot of assumptions about the views of those they disagree with, it would be useful to know if that's really just a fringe view, or not. Do you think trans women should be locked up or murdered? Aren't you being a hypocrite for not thinking that when some men do think that. Shouldn't you acknowledge those men in every discussion about this?
MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
No I don't see why should I or teuchter acknowledge opinions we don't hold. I personally don't hold that trans women (your term not mine, I don't like it on the grounds I don't consider it accurate) should be locked up or murdered or even laughed at in the street. They're perfectly entitled to go out dressed how they want without fear of violence and if they want to be addressed as Miss rather than Mr or by a 'woman's" name then I'm cool with that too, it's not hurting anyone me least of all.
What I don't think they should do is be allowed into women-only spaces (which are women only for good sound reasons) such as ladies loo's, changing rooms or competitive sports, for exactly the same reason that I'm not either, ie neither of us are women.
I appreciate that this may cause distress to some people and that society should make efforts to do something about it but cold hard biological reality will alway trump gender identity.
I do not give a flying fuck what you think.
MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
Fair enough
Absolutely all of this. I just refuse to be forced to have to share prisons, hospital wards, or refuges, with men who identify as women.
I had an over ten year marriage with domestic violence which culminated in him beating my sons face so badly we had a child protection medical and police photographs. HEAR ME when I say I will not be detained with a man, even a man who identifies as a woman.
I have worked as an escort most of the way through my twenties, and have been subject to sexual violence and sex I have not consented to (bareback without consent, shared without consent etc). HEAR ME when I say I do not want to share my toilets or changing rooms with men, I do not want to undress with male bodied people around.
I am not unusual. One in three women experience domestic violence in their lifetimes and 81 women have been murdered by men since Sarah Everard was murdered 6 months ago.
If other women are concerned about the rights and protection of trans women, they should campaign for gender neutral provision. And if trans men wish to use male facilities and be detained with men that is their choice, but in my view they will be making themselves very vulnerable and would be better off also campaigning for gender neutral provision. I do not care about the opinion of males.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
A man other than your son. Refuges always accept male children and most any male with care needs. All too often they would be damaged young men, following years of abuse. Other women will be in the same situation. What should happen to their children?
elbows
Well-Known Member
I'm a man who butted out for over two years until recent weeks where I've ended up making a few posts on this thread. I still aim to butt out again once I've given my thoughts on this.I can only imagine.
I do think though that most people are intrinsically reasonable and want to do the right thing and with a bit more thought and reasoned discussion on all sides, we could start coming up with solutions for some of these issues. But given women often don't feel like cis men are listening to them about a whole load of stuff, I think cis men butting out a bit while these debates are had would be helpful. (Maybe I'm just a hopeless optimist though...)
The discussions on u75 about this topic have gone through a number of phases over the years. Things got especially heated during a period when the possibly of increasing trans rights via things life self identification were on the table, especially as some people didnt just have a problem with that idea, but also made it obvious that their opinions about trans people meant they were seeking to undermine existing trans rights too, or at least didnt understand what those existing rights were. There was a lot of hurt and pain on all sides of that debate, and plenty of people on all sides either left these forums completely or ended up feeling like they had little choice but to refuse to discuss the subject anymore publicly on u75.
I didnt ban myself from getting involved in this subject here until quite a long time after that period ended. I felt I had to ban myself because I could not stay calm enough, and the discussions too often turned to whether I was unfairly attacking specific posters who I considered to be transphobes who rarely missed an opportunity to demonstrate their transphobia. I didnt think it was fair to anyone to continue with that once I had been round that circuit too many times already, and I wanted to see if the nature of the discussions improved once I was no longer pouring any fuel onto the flames. My absence may have made a small difference, but the change was rather insignificant compared to the difference between the especially hurtful phase I described as happening years ago, and what came afterwards. Probably because the largest number of people to stop engaging with these discussions stopped well before me, leading to the most obvious difference in debate intensity quite some time before I finally found the zip for my gob.
It would be better if some meaningful solutions could be found other than the one many resorted to of falling silent. Limits to my ability to find any causes for optimism I might seek on this front include the number who have gone and arent coming back, the failure of solutions to be found where these issues have caused division in other areas of society, and the motives of a proportion of those who provide ongoing momentum for this subject to still be discussed here. Unlike a past period, the discussions these days are not so often driven by topical news events, much has happened in the wider world that goes without comment on these forums, and when such events are mentioned not too many other people join in. Much of the remaining momentum is driven by a small core of people who rarely miss the opportunity to repeat their feelings and opinions on this subject, and those who feel the need to respond when they do. Occasionally it is blatant shit-stirrers that reignite the discussion, or people who werent involved in past iterations of these discussions and start the ball rolling as if we've not been round in these circles many times before.
Even when these debates were at their most hideous in the past, there were brief pauses to the hate, little glimpses of what could unite us or at least stop us being at each others throats. But they werent usually sustainable, and even if large numbers of people had been up to that challenge, the shit-stirrers knew how to get things going again, albeit with an ever decreasing audience.
Also plenty of the fallings out were between women with different stances on these issues. There are specific men whose input to these debates is entirely negative or at least not always positive, but the subject of womens safety and trans rights does not show massive potential for resolution once men are removed from the discussion. Or at least thats what the past taught me, I'd be delighted to see it pan out differently in future.
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teuchter
je suis teuchter
Firstly, I don't think I've accused you of being a hypocrite.
Secondly, "trans women are perverted degenerates who should be locked up or murdered" is not a view that would be accepted or entertained in public. Or is it in your experience? I quoted an account by LynnDoyleCooper of something they had witnessed in real life. I hear people I know relating similar things. Those people are sometimes worried about saying the wrong or right thing in a work environment, for example. It appears that there are people whose view is that physical anatomy just shouldn't come into the discussion at all - in almost any scenario - if someone wants to identify as male or female, that should be the end of it. I honestly find it hard to judge the extent to which that view is held amongst those who would describe themselves as supportive of trans rights and I asked you how you saw it. It appears to be a view that is out there, and it doesn't seem fair to compare it to something that is quite obviously an extreme view.
andysays
Love and solidarity
I don't think there really is a "general view"; I think there is a variety of points of view, a variety of genuine and valid interests which aren't entirely compatible and a variety of what I'll call philosophical approaches.
And to pick up on your reference to "what they should have access to, or what protections they should be offered", I think those two things are at least potentially different.
I think, for example, that it's possible to argue that trans women should be afforded every necessary protection from gendered violence and sexual assault, but that they shouldn't automatically have access to compete in women's sports, like in the example you referred to from (I think) LDC.
maomao
普費斯
This absolutely. I'm not a big fan of identity politics and wouldn't demand that you had to be an ethnic minority to post on a thread about racism but my heart sinks every time another middle-aged cis man enters the debate.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
3 or 4 years ago, these discussions were going on here, and I mostly avoided them.
What seems different to me now, is that I am hearing about these issues appearing much more as it were in "real life" and I think that's something that has changed. It's not just an argument going on in angry twitter exchanges or discussion forum threads but it's something that people are having to get their heads around in situations they can't simply avoid or stay silent about, because, for example, questions are presenting themselves in work contexts where someone has to try and judge what the right thing to do is.
It's probably not a bad thing that this is now the case - but surely it has to be acknowledged that there are a lot of people who are pretty confused about everything and can't continue to avoid this whole difficult area by never asking any questions because they might unwittingly ask the "wrong" question.
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