Is this woman a transphobe?

[hitmouse]

Deliberately inflammatory, if true, is not the same thing as bigotry. When the bigot and transphobe slur is chucked around so liberally then there is no chance of temperate discussion.

It's such a shame that we were so close to being able to have a sensible, temperate discussion about men wearing lipstick and rubbing their dicks in children's faces but now it's been ruined by the people using unhelpfully emotive language and imagery.

The need for women only prisons and other safe spaces is not an issue because trans women pose some unique threat to women. Safe spaces are an issue because anatomically intact males, males with genitals and male strength etc are men and 99% of sex offenses against women are by men. |

So the objection is not to "trans women" sharing women's spaces but men sharing such spaces and anatomically intact males are men.

You do realise that anatomically intact males, males with genitals and male strength already have access to women's prisons, right?

Women prisoners 'coerced into sex with staff'

Female prisoners have been "coerced" into having sex with staff in return for favours such as alcohol and cigarettes, a report suggests.

www.bbc.co.uk

Inside UK's biggest women's prison - with sex favours for drugs and daily fights

Former private school pupil Sophie Campbell was locked up at HMP Bronzefield in Middlesex for attacking a police officer - here she shares what she saw behind bars

www.mirror.co.uk

Still, they're in uniform, so I'm sure it must be fine, it's not like men in uniform ever misuse their authority.

 

[hitmouse]

prisons and other safe spaces. prisons and other safe spaces.

 

[dylans]

It's such a shame that we were so close to being able to have a sensible, temperate discussion about men wearing lipstick and rubbing their dicks in children's faces but now it's been ruined by the people using unhelpfully emotive language and imagery.

You do realise that anatomically intact males, males with genitals and male strength already have access to women's prisons, right?

Women prisoners 'coerced into sex with staff'

Female prisoners have been "coerced" into having sex with staff in return for favours such as alcohol and cigarettes, a report suggests.

www.bbc.co.uk

Inside UK's biggest women's prison - with sex favours for drugs and daily fights

Former private school pupil Sophie Campbell was locked up at HMP Bronzefield in Middlesex for attacking a police officer - here she shares what she saw behind bars

www.mirror.co.uk

Still, they're in uniform, so I'm sure it must be fine, it's not like men in uniform ever misuse their authority.

Oh fuck it then, lets do away with single sex prisons entirely. What's the point if they are already full of rapists in uniform. Instead of challenging that kind of institutional corruption, lets just make the entire institution mixed sex and let any old serial rapist share the cells and showers with women prisoners. The more the merrier.

Stupid argument. It amounts to saying, oh because institutional abuse and corruption already exists lets throw the doors open and not bother with women's safety at all

 

[hitmouse]

Oh fuck it then, lets do away with single sex prisons entirely. What's the point if they are already full of rapists in uniform. Instead of challenging that kind of institutional corruption, lets just make the entire institution mixed sex and let any old serial rapist share the cells and showers with women prisoners. The more the merrier.

Stupid argument. It amounts to saying, oh because institutional abuse and corruption already exists lets throw the doors open and not bother with women's safety at all

What are you doing to challenge this kind of institutional corruption? Maintaining these safe spaces is obviously very important to you, so let's hear about the work that you're doing to get men out of women's prisons.

 

[hitmouse]

I think a lot of prisoners would probably agree with "let's throw the doors open", fwiw.

 

[dylans]

What are you doing to challenge this kind of institutional corruption? Maintaining these safe spaces is obviously very important to you, so let's hear about the work that you're doing to get men out of women's prisons.

Me? Oh I'm just some gobshite talking bollocks on the internet on a rainy sunday afternoon. The same as 99% of posters on here. I didn't realise I had to have a certified history of activism in order to have an opinion,

Unlike yourself of course. So please enlighten us all with the great work you are doing seeing you obviously have the moral high ground here.

 

[smokedout]

Yeah my bad, cheers.

It's a stupid and misogynist placard that really isn't helpful but I think it's important to be accurate about what's going on at Sussex given gender criticals have been contacting Sussex Police demanding that criticism or protests about Stock's views be treated as terrorism.

 

[belboid]

It's a stupid and misogynist placard that really isn't helpful but I think it's important to be accurate about what's going on at Sussex given gender criticals have been contacting Sussex Police demanding that criticism or protests about Stock's views be treated as terrorism.

Including the claim that flying the trans flag amounted to harassment. Brave protectors of free speech my arse

 

[smokedout]

Including the claim that flying the trans flag amounted to harassment. Brave protectors of free speech my arse

Given Stock signed a document calling for a worldwide ban on any kind of research which may result in people being born physically male ever being able to gestate, demands that no publically funded bodies be permitted to discuss gender identity in schools, insists that any kind of trans healthcare for children be banned regardless of evidence and that organisations which support the concept of gender identity not be permitted to have any say in the treatment of gender dysphoria in young people then I'm taking Stock's claim to support academic freedom with a pinch of salt.

 

[Edie]

It's such a shame that we were so close to being able to have a sensible, temperate discussion about men wearing lipstick and rubbing their dicks in children's faces but now it's been ruined by the people using unhelpfully emotive language and imagery.

You do realise that anatomically intact males, males with genitals and male strength already have access to women's prisons, right?

Women prisoners 'coerced into sex with staff'

Female prisoners have been "coerced" into having sex with staff in return for favours such as alcohol and cigarettes, a report suggests.

www.bbc.co.uk

Inside UK's biggest women's prison - with sex favours for drugs and daily fights

Former private school pupil Sophie Campbell was locked up at HMP Bronzefield in Middlesex for attacking a police officer - here she shares what she saw behind bars

www.mirror.co.uk

Still, they're in uniform, so I'm sure it must be fine, it's not like men in uniform ever misuse their authority.

Are you daft? Are you unable to tell the difference between a guard and an inmate? If you were a woman in prison, would you be able to tell the difference do you think? Here’s a clue: you are locked in a cell for 23 hours a day with one of them and not the other.

 

[smokedout]

Are you daft? Are you unable to tell the difference between a guard and an inmate? If you were a woman in prison, would you be able to tell the difference do you think? Here’s a clue: you are locked in a cell for 23 hours a day with one of them and not the other.

On the other hand a trans inmate can't fit you up on a bogus drugs charge and get months added to your sentence if you don't do what they want.

Trans women do not share cells with cis women in UK prisons incidentally.

 

[Edie]

Trans women do not share cells with cis women in UK prisons incidentally.

This was literally the first result on Google

 

[hitmouse]

Me? Oh I'm just some gobshite talking bollocks on the internet on a rainy sunday afternoon. The same as 99% of posters on here. I didn't realise I had to have a certified history of activism in order to have an opinion,

Unlike yourself of course. So please enlighten us all with the great work you are doing seeing you obviously have the moral high ground here.

OK, maybe I'm setting the bar too high here. Tell me about your opinions. What are your opinions about what a "safe space" prison would look like? Personally, I think getting more women out of prison would probably do more to keep them safe than demanding trans women have to be sent to men's prisons.

Are you daft? Are you unable to tell the difference between a guard and an inmate? If you were a woman in prison, would you be able to tell the difference do you think?

Which one of them has more coercive power? And, out of cis male guards and trans women prisoners, which one do you think cis women prisoners encounter more frequently? As for "being locked in a cell with them for 23 hours a day" - who exactly has the keys in this situation?

 

[Edie]

OK, maybe I'm setting the bar too high here. Tell me about your opinions. What are your opinions about what a "safe space" prison would look like? Personally, I think getting more women out of prison would probably do more to keep them safe than demanding trans women have to be sent to men's prisons.

Which one of them has more coercive power? And, out of cis male guards and trans women prisoners, which one do you think cis women prisoners encounter more frequently? As for "being locked in a cell with them for 23 hours a day" - who exactly has the keys in this situation?

You have no idea. Sorry. Just no idea.

 

[smokedout]

You have no idea. Sorry. Just no idea.

There are around 34 trans women held in women's jails, all have been subject to extensive risk assessment, several are held in a specialist unit and not allowed unsupervised contact with other prisoners and all are subject to rules relating to privacy and risk assessments regarding cell allocation, use of showers etc. The idea that trans women in prisons represents anything like the threat that comes from male staff is absurd and offensive given the high profile cases which have consistently emerged of male prison officers engaging in organised and systemic sexual abuse. Most women in prison will never even come across a trans prisoner.

Reported sexual assaults in UK prisons are thankfully quite low compared to other countries, although it is likely many go unreported. On average roughly one in 300 prisoners report being a victim of sexual assault in an average year. The figures fell considerably in the last year which I suspect might be down to everyone being locked down because of Covid, but rates of assaults are pretty similar in both the male and female estate (in fact they are slightly higher in the female estate but not by enough to draw any meaningful conclusions).

In the recent Judicial Revew looking into the legality of holding trans women in women's prisons (it's legal btw) it emerged that 11 trans prisoners had reported being sexually assaulted in the male estate in the most recent year whilst there were no recorded incidents of trans women sexually assaulting anyone in the female estate. The exact figure is a bit blurry but there's probably about 120 trans prisoners in the male estate. So based on this figure in the most recent year almost 10% of trans prisoners in the male estate are were sexually assaulted compared to about 0.3% of non trans prisoners. This suggests trans prisoners in the male estate are 30 times more likely to be sexually assaulted than cis male or female prisoners in either estate.

Just to give you an idea.

 

[dylans]

OK, maybe I'm setting the bar too high here. Tell me about your opinions. What are your opinions about what a "safe space" prison would look like? Personally, I think getting more women out of prison would probably do more to keep them safe than demanding trans women have to be sent to men's prisons.

Which one of them has more coercive power? And, out of cis male guards and trans women prisoners, which one do you think cis women prisoners encounter more frequently? As for "being locked in a cell with them for 23 hours a day" - who exactly has the keys in this situation?

This is not the argument you think it is. Because one can agree completely about the corrosive effect and impact of institutional corruption and abuse by guards and I do. One can agree completely on the need for massive, widespread and radical prison reform including, yes, the release of all non violent prisoners into the community and a radical restructuring of sentencing away from custodial sentences, and I do.

and yet none of that is any kind of argument in the slightest for the introduction of anatomically intact male trans women into prisons, a process which has only one effect which is to further undermine the safety and rights of female prisoners.

Which makes your entire argument one massive and irrelevant straw man

 

[dylans]

There are around 34 trans women held in women's jails, all have been subject to extensive risk assessment, several are held in a specialist unit and not allowed unsupervised contact with other prisoners and all are subject to rules relating to privacy and risk assessments regarding cell allocation, use of showers etc. The idea that trans women in prisons represents anything like the threat that comes from male staff is absurd and offensive given the high profile cases which have consistently emerged of male prison officers engaging in organised and systemic sexual abuse. Most women in prison will never even come across a trans prisoner.

Reported sexual assaults in UK prisons are thankfully quite low compared to other countries, although it is likely many go unreported. On average roughly one in 300 prisoners report being a victim of sexual assault in an average year. The figures fell considerably in the last year which I suspect might be down to everyone being locked down because of Covid, but rates of assaults are pretty similar in both the male and female estate (in fact they are slightly higher in the female estate but not by enough to draw any meaningful conclusions).

In the recent Judicial Revew looking into the legality of holding trans women in women's prisons (it's legal btw) it emerged that 11 trans prisoners had reported being sexually assaulted in the male estate in the most recent year whilst there were no recorded incidents of trans women sexually assaulted anyone in the female estate. The exact figure is a bit blurry but there's probably about 120 trans prisoners in the male estate. So based on this figure in the most recent year almost 10% of trans prisoners in the male estate are were sexually assaulted compared to about 0.3% of non trans prisoners. This suggests trans prisoners in the male estate are 30 times more likely to be sexually assaulted than cis male or female prisoners in either estate.

Just to give you an idea.

and yet

"The unconditional introduction of a transgender woman into the general population of a women's prison carries a statistically greater risk of sexual assault upon non-transgender prisoners than would be the case if a non-transgender woman were introduced."

In other words, the rate of trans women's sexual offending patterns are in line with male prisoners which is not really surprising given that they are, in fact, men.

 

[smokedout]

and yet

"The unconditional introduction of a transgender woman into the general population of a women's prison carries a statistically greater risk of sexual assault upon non-transgender prisoners than would be the case if a non-transgender woman were introduced."

In other words, their rate of trans women's sexual offending patterns are in line with male prisoners which is not really surprising given that they are, in fact, men.

In typical gender critical fashion you missed the next line in the judgement: "But that statistical conclusion takes no account of the risk assessment which the policies require."

Trans women are not being unconditionally admitted to the women's estate, a very small number are being admitted after extensive assessment.

 

[teuchter]

In typical gender critical fashion you missed the next line in the judgement: "But that statistical conclusion takes no account of the risk assessment which the policies require."

Trans women are not being unconditionally admitted to the women's estate, a very small number are being admitted after extensive assessment.

What happens to those that the risk assessment decides should not be admitted? Do they then have to go to a "male" prison?

 

[Orang Utan]

In other words, the rate of trans women's sexual offending patterns are in line with male prisoners which is not really surprising given that they are, in fact, men.

Your bigotry is showing again

 

[dylans]

In typical gender critical fashion you missed the next line in the judgement: "But that statistical conclusion takes no account of the risk assessment which the policies require."

Trans women are not being unconditionally admitted to the women's estate, a very small number are being admitted after extensive assessment.

Your bigotry is showing again

If stating the bleeding obvious is bigotry in your world then you are really through the looking glass and down the rabbit hole. Biological sex is real and immutable. Women do not have a penis. Men can't have babies and you cannot change sex just because you wish to.

and yes only women have a cervix

 

[Orang Utan]

Ok then. Good to see where you stand then

 

[iona]

Pretty sure my cervix isn't going to make most women a whole lot more comfortable about sharing a changing room or prison cell with me tbh

 

[dylans]

Ok then. Good to see where you stand then

With reality? Yeah.

 

[belboid]

Thank fuck there is someone brave enough to come along and make these bold and original statements that no one has said before.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Thank fuck there is someone brave enough to come along and make these bold and original statements that no one has said before.

It's all been said before.

 

[smokedout]

What happens to those that the risk assessment decides should not be admitted? Do they then have to go to a "male" prison?

Yes, although accommodations should be made to facilitate privacy and safety such as seperate shower times or having their own cell but they clearly aren't working to protect trans prisoners.

 

[dylans]

Thank fuck there is someone brave enough to come along and make these bold and original statements that no one has said before.

Actually I'm really glad that, with you, there is still someone brave enough to continue the tradition started by Trofim Lysenko
I know he's not very fashionable these days so I applaud your efforts for keeping the flame alive.

 

[Athos]

In typical gender critical fashion you missed the next line in the judgement: "But that statistical conclusion takes no account of the risk assessment which the policies require."

Trans women are not being unconditionally admitted to the women's estate, a very small number are being admitted after extensive assessment.

As true as that is, there's no getting away from the fact that allowing trans women into female-only spaces (such as prisons) increases the risk of rape. The question is whether or not that incease - which I agree is stastically very small - is something that women should accept in order to minimise the risk to trans women. Some think it should be, on a net harm-minimisation basis; others think there's no reason why women should forego their hard-won right to single-sex spaces and assume any greater risk (no matter how small) to protect those with male biology who were socialised as boys then men. I suspect that, ultimately, most preople's decision will come down to whether or not they consider trans women to be women, which, in turn is a political/ideological choice (given that the definition of 'woman' is clearly not fixed for all time and every place, in every social context). Largely, that'll depend on life experiences; younger people, especially women, who've perhaps not experienced the same levels of male sexual violence, are likely to be more inclusive.

 

[ginger_syn]

I am talking about anatomically intact males who identify as women. Trans women who retain male genitalia and the rights of women to spaces where they are not confronted by that male genitalia

If you think women demanding such spaces is bigotry then you are off your rocker.

Nobody waives their bits about in a womens toilet so unless your daughter is standing on a toilet and looking into the next cubicle how will she know whats under the dress, is that what your daughter does in toilets.
This is stupid levels of dickery from you.