Is this woman a transphobe?

[littlebabyjesus]

You can ignore it as you wish. It is widely used in teaching and interpreting mental disorders by psychiatrists and the courts. If you are communicating with people about mental disorders it is widely recognised as a work of definition and reference. I have many reservations about it, but it exists and tends to affect many legal and medical decisions.

I know what it is.

 

[Edie]

You can ignore it as you wish. It is widely used in teaching and interpreting mental disorders by psychiatrists and the courts. If you are communicating with people about mental disorders it is widely recognised as a work of definition and reference. I have many reservations about it, but it exists and tends to affect many legal and medical decisions.

ICD is more used in the UK I would have thought. It certainly is clinically.

 

[Border Reiver]

ICD is more used in the UK I would have thought. It certainly is clinically.

Both are used in the three areas I worked. ICD is mainly a listing of diagnostic categories whereas DSM has comprehensive listing of symptomatology.

 

[ice-is-forming]

That must be explained by the fact that I am a retired Mental Health Clinician and Manager with three decades experience and a degree in Psychology; or you could be wrong.

Honestly I wouldn't use that as a measure of your expertise. Ime being a retired Mental Health Clinical Manager with three decades experience and a degree in Psychology, usually translates to being institutionalised, and an expert on no one but yourself.

 

[Border Reiver]

Honestly I wouldn't use that as a measure of your expertise. Ime being a retired Mental Health Clinical Manager with three decades experience and a degree in Psychology, usually translates to being institutionalised, and an expert on no one but yourself.

Only if you are totally incompetent at assessing people. As you probably are. Ad hominem comments are such a time wasting technique. Your opinion of me has no weight.

 

[ice-is-forming]

Only if you are totally incompetent at assessing people. As you probably are. Ad hominem comments are such a time wasting technique. Your opinion of me has no weight.

Oh right that's it on my ignore list you go

 

[kabbes]

A degree in psychology presumably obtained more than three decades ago. So obtained before 1990. Fortunately, there’s been no development in the field since 1990.

 

[Knotted]

On the other side are the theories of the likes of Mermaids. Again, not fringe ideas as, among other things, Mermaids is an influential lobbying organisation. Its theories are just as arbitrary as Blanchard's, promoting a particular form of a 'gender spectrum' filled with stereotypes onto which people in general, and children in particular, are invited to place themselves. It essentialises gender and dogmatically asserts that affirmation of the child's professed gender identity is the only correct course of action.

Do you have a link for this?

 

[Border Reiver]

Oh right that's it on my ignore list you go

Good. You will not be wasting my time then.

 

[bimble]

Do you have a link for this?

I think lbj was remembering this, which caused no end of tumult whenever it first appeared on twitter. It was a slide used by Mermaids as part of a training session for adults but i can't remember more context. I believe Mermaids no longer use it and the only (many) references to it now are from The Other Side, who love to use it for target practice. That's G I joe on the other end from Barbie.
View attachment 261692

 

[Border Reiver]

Do you have a link for this?

I thought they were a neutral parent support group with no definite ideology.

 

[Athos]

There is a lot of neuroscience about synaptic pruning and the development of the pre frontal cortex, that shows adolescents cannot weigh up decisions and risks as adults do. I only need to observe the thought patterns/arguments/decisions of my sons to see that evidence. Children need to be supported to explore their feelings and relationships with their bodies and gender. And no active intervention that could constitute harm by the medical community should be considered. To do otherwise is madness- these children as adults will be horrified. Support, understanding, love, counselling, acceptance and not medical intervention.

That sounds good in principle, but it overlooks the urgency of some of this stuff. If puberty blockers are effective (and I accept the very recent NICE report seems to suggest they aren't, albeit I've not had a chance to read it in full), then, given that the side-effects appear to be minimal (accepting there's still some risk), then buying some kids the chance to do that exploration might be appropriate. But I'm not saying it's something that should be dished out willly-nilly, and I do have concerns that it's not always used to buy time so much as being seen as a step towards inevitable cross-sex hormones (and possibly surgery), against a backdrop that affirmation is always right.

 

[Knotted]

Thanks bimble . I've spent half an hour scouring their website and I can't find anything at all about gender spectrums, let alone gender stereotypes.

 

[Athos]

I thought they were a neutral parent support group with no definite ideology.

Lol.

 

[A380]

Only if you are totally incompetent at assessing people. As you probably are. Ad hominem comments are such a time wasting technique. Your opinion of me has no weight.

And yet they aren’t banned?

 

[bimble]

Thanks bimble . I've spent half an hour scouring their website and I can't find anything at all about gender spectrums, let alone gender stereotypes.

As far as i recall they did distance themselves quickly from it, it caused a huge stink that picture. Nobody seemed to like it.

 

[Edie]

That sounds good in principle, but it overlooks the urgency of some of this stuff. If puberty blockers are effective (and I accept the very recent NICE report seems to suggest they aren't, albeit I've not had a chance to read it in full), then, given that the side-effects appear to be minimal (accepting there's still some risk), then buying some kids the chance to do that exploration might be appropriate. But I'm not saying it's something that should be dished out willly-nilly, and I do have concerns that it's not always used to buy time so much as being seen as a step towards inevitable cross-sex hormones (and possibly surgery), against a backdrop that affirmation is always right.

Puberty blockers used to treat children aged 12 to 15 who have severe and persistent gender dysphoria had no significant effect on their psychological function, thoughts of self-harm, or body image, a study has found.

However, as expected, the children experienced reduced growth in height and bone strength by the time they finished their treatment at age 16.

Puberty blockers do not alleviate negative thoughts in children with gender dysphoria, finds study

Puberty blockers used to treat children aged 12 to 15 who have severe and persistent gender dysphoria had no significant effect on their psychological function, thoughts of self-harm, or body image, a study has found.1 However, as expected, the children experienced reduced growth in height and...

www.bmj.com

Reduced height and osteoporosis for at best questionable psychological benefits (or quite possibly significantly adding to psychological distress in the future). This should be causing significant concern with respect to medical ethics. And asking psychologically disturbed children to consent to this?

 

[Edie]

Btw I found that googling BNF puberty blockers to try and find which GnRH is used to look up the known side effects.

 

[Border Reiver]

Puberty blockers used to treat children aged 12 to 15 who have severe and persistent gender dysphoria had no significant effect on their psychological function, thoughts of self-harm, or body image, a study has found.

However, as expected, the children experienced reduced growth in height and bone strength by the time they finished their treatment at age 16.

Puberty blockers do not alleviate negative thoughts in children with gender dysphoria, finds study

Puberty blockers used to treat children aged 12 to 15 who have severe and persistent gender dysphoria had no significant effect on their psychological function, thoughts of self-harm, or body image, a study has found.1 However, as expected, the children experienced reduced growth in height and...

www.bmj.com

Reduced height and osteoporosis for at best questionable psychological benefits (or quite possibly significantly adding to psychological distress in the future). This should be causing significant concern with respect to medical ethics. And asking psychologically disturbed children to consent to this?

Medical ethics has fully considered all of this. No Royal College opposes puberty blockers or surgery where properly considered and consented. There is no ethical bar to treatment.

 

[Knotted]

I don't have subscription to the BMJ so I'm not sure what the exact substance of that conclusion is. But I would think that it's very difficult to find statistically significant effects on a small (44) sample size.

 

[Edie]

Medical ethics has fully considered all of this. No Royal College opposes puberty blockers or surgery where properly considered and consented. There is no ethical bar to treatment.

Whether you like it or not there exist significant ethical concerns and widespread debate within the medical community, including RCPsych and RCP.

 

[bimble]

There is no ethical bar to treatment.

What does this sentence mean?

 

[Edie]

I don't have subscription to the BMJ so I'm not sure what the exact substance of that conclusion is. But I would think that it's very difficult to find statistically significant affects on a small (44) sample size.

Yet those are the kinds of sample sizes available. Low powered evidence.

 

[Edie]

What does this sentence mean?

It’s meaningless.

 

[Knotted]

Personally I don't want to be pronouncing on the effects (positive or negative) of puberty blockers. It will require a proper (non cherry picked), statistically competent review of the literature. I ain't up for that.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Study here.

Short-term outcomes of pubertal suppression in a selected cohort of 12 to 15 year old young people with persistent gender dysphoria in the UK

 

[bimble]

This link is the evidence gathering one from looking at a whole bunch of different studies, with the sources explained. But all the studies are small.

Evidence search service closure information

www.evidence.nhs.uk

 

[Athos]

Puberty blockers used to treat children aged 12 to 15 who have severe and persistent gender dysphoria had no significant effect on their psychological function, thoughts of self-harm, or body image, a study has found.

However, as expected, the children experienced reduced growth in height and bone strength by the time they finished their treatment at age 16.

Puberty blockers do not alleviate negative thoughts in children with gender dysphoria, finds study

Puberty blockers used to treat children aged 12 to 15 who have severe and persistent gender dysphoria had no significant effect on their psychological function, thoughts of self-harm, or body image, a study has found.1 However, as expected, the children experienced reduced growth in height and...

www.bmj.com

Reduced height and osteoporosis for at best questionable psychological benefits (or quite possibly significantly adding to psycholo
gical distress in the future). This should be causing significant concern with respect to medical ethics. And asking psychologically disturbed children to consent to this?

I don't disagree with that. I'm just not so dogmatic about denying that they might ever be appropriate, as I don't have a settled position on their efficacy; there seems to be much contradictory evidence.

 

[kabbes]

Medical ethics has fully considered all of this. No Royal College opposes puberty blockers or surgery where properly considered and consented. There is no ethical bar to treatment.

Oh, well if “medical ethics” has considered it then that’s case closed.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This link is the evidence gathering one from looking at a whole bunch of different studies, with the sources explained. But all the studies are small.

Evidence search service closure information

www.evidence.nhs.uk

Similar conclusions to the other study, and so not really all that much use. Little change recorded in mental health indicators, and the best that might mean is that the treatments stopped things from getting worse, but given that things were necessarily very bad at the start, that's not entirely convincing to me, particularly as non-pharmaceutical approaches to treatment aren't included for comparison.

The results of the studies that reported impact on the critical outcomes of gender dysphoria and mental health (depression, anger and anxiety), and the important outcomes of body image and psychosocial impact (global and psychosocial functioning) in children and adolescents with gender dysphoria are of very low certainty using modified GRADE. They suggest little change with GnRH analogues from baseline to follow-up.

Studies that found differences in outcomes could represent changes that are either of questionable clinical value, or the studies themselves are not reliable and changes could be due to confounding, bias or chance. It is plausible, however, that a lack of difference in scores from baseline to follow-up is the effect of GnRH analogues in children and adolescents with gender dysphoria, in whom the development of secondary sexual characteristics might be expected to be associated with an increased impact on gender dysphoria, depression, anxiety, anger and distress over time without treatment. One study reported statistically significant reductions in the Child Behaviour Checklist/Youth Self-Report (CBCL/YSR) scores from baseline to follow up, and given that the purpose of GnRH analogues is to reduce distress caused by the development of secondary sexual characteristics and the CBCL/YSR in part measures distress, this could be an important finding. However, as the studies all lack reasonable controls not receiving GnRH analogues, the natural history of the outcomes measured in the studies is not known and any positive changes could be a regression to mean.