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Is this woman a transphobe?

As I said earlier, what I do find interesting is the degree this divisive and authoritarian liberal/left wing agenda has been allowed to dominate society and social media. But other people aren’t keen to discuss that or how/why it has occurred.

Anyway, this has been a splendid example of it from Mr Border Reiver so maybe that’s enough for now.
To an extent, I think it's the result of a pretty natural reaction of sympathy for a group of clearly marginalised people. But within that marginalised group there exist objectionable and obnoxious people and opinions, and there is also very clearly an attempt from some to police definitions and impose a particular way of thinking on everyone. That way of thinking doesn't leave room for certain gender-critical positions that are themselves perfectly internally consistent. I can fully see why people want to support trans rights (I do too!), but I don't see how a conception of those rights that includes dictating a particular view of gender cannot be divisive.

You have groups like Mermaids pushing their 'gender spectrum' ideas with princesses at one end and soldiers at the other. I find that limiting idea really objectionable and regressive, as do many other people, understandably I would have thought, when they've spent decades trying to move away from the idea that 'this is a girl thing and that is a boy thing'. Instead of promoting the idea that girls and boys should not feel limited by their sex or gendered expectations, those very limits are essentialised. (And I would add here that gendered expectations are not just a trans issue. Very far from it.)

It's a mess. The more you learn about it, the more of a mess it appears.
 
This is brilliant. He comes into a discussion forum and promptly ignores all the regulars that discuss things.

What are you hoping for, Border? Oh wait, you can’t read this. I guess that sadly I will never know.
 
Are sea lions the new toning mist?
A sea lion isn't the same as a sealion.

This is a sea lion:
65154_sea_lion_sailor_in_uniform.jpg
 
I'm imagining an 18th century naval officer who commands the HMS Sea Lion, and his colleagues keep introducing him as "commander of the HMS Sealion" and he shouts "NO! It's the HMS Sea.... Lion, they're different!"
 
I’m not on Twitter so I don’t really know or care about that. And I don’t really care how often men like you try and close down the debate using that tactic elsewhere either. Because women can and will continue to discuss it. Often behind your backs :)
I went on it purely to follow Donald Trump (plus some of his detractors), I've lost interest now they've kicked him off it.
 
These discussions always seem to end up with arguments about single-sex spaces and how they should, shouldn't, could or couldn't be policed.

But as far as I can see (this basically means, speaking to female friends), most women who might be labelled "gender critical" aren't really that bothered about that argument. What they are mainly angry about is

1) Being told they have to accept that the definition of "woman" has now changed, so it is no longer tied to their lived experience of their physical biology and the unchangeable consequences of that
2) Stuff that is difficult for me to condense into one sentence but it's to do with an apparent acceptance of gender stereotypes that they've fought against for their whole lives

They are pretty angry about this stuff and I completely understand why. They also seem to feel they can only really discuss it in private because otherwise they are liable to end up labelled as transphobes. And they are not transphobes.
 
If nothing else, the terms transphobe and bigot could do with being put to one side in much of this debate.

If Keira Bell is a transphobic bigot then really the term has no meaning, it's just being chucked around to describe people who don't agree with a particular formulation of the argument.
 
These discussions always seem to end up with arguments about single-sex spaces and how they should, shouldn't, could or couldn't be policed.

But as far as I can see (this basically means, speaking to female friends), most women who might be labelled "gender critical" aren't really that bothered about that argument. What they are mainly angry about is

1) Being told they have to accept that the definition of "woman" has now changed, so it is no longer tied to their lived experience of their physical biology and the unchangeable consequences of that
2) Stuff that is difficult for me to condense into one sentence but it's to do with an apparent acceptance of gender stereotypes that they've fought against for their whole lives

They are pretty angry about this stuff and I completely understand why. They also seem to feel they can only really discuss it in private because otherwise they are liable to end up labelled as transphobes. And they are not transphobes.

I think a big part of this problem is that trans people have actually largely been excluded from this public debate. There are few to none trans columnists discussing this in the national press compared to nearly daily anti-trans stories. There are no trans people with platform's the size of JK Rowling. There are very few trans people in the public eye at all and trans people are frequently spoken about but rarely spoken to - see this thread and the Newsnight coverage of the Tavistock for examples.

In addition very few people have read any trans feminist theory, are familiar with trans history, or indeed have read much radical feminist theory. And so both sides of this debate are framed through the gender critical lens, or sometimes a more conservative lens. People's information on what trans people 'want' or 'believe' comes from gender critical sources or the right wing press - not trans people themselves. And because very few people acually have a close relationship with a trans person then it becomes very easy to project whatever you want onto them.

With some exceptions obviously, trans people are not a monolith, trans people are far more opposed to gender stereotypes than mainstream society. There are many radical trans gender abolitionists, there are femme trans men, and butch trans women and all kinds of other manifestations. As gender critical activists point out, there are now dozens of gender identities, soon there might be thousands, can each of these truly represent a stereotype? The vast majority of trans people have said many times being trans is nothing to do with stereotypes, that's not what gender dysphoria is about, or feels like, or what anyone wants. Quite the opposite in fact. This is an assumption that is placed onto trans people by people who aren't trans, often without malign intent but increasingly as a weapon. So now we have whole trans ideology, that is feverishly discussed in the national media, that has actually been largely invented by gender critical activists based on assumptions, speculation and a constant global search for a tweet here and a blogpost there that are used to prove these intentions - in the rare occassion anyone asks for proof. Yet I have never met or read a trans person who thinks that gender non-conforming kids should be transed, or that gender stereotypes are a good thing. And if abolishing these stereotypes was such a priority for the gender critical movement then where is the outrage at the beauty industy, cosmetic surgeons, the church, Hollywood and all the other institutions that do far more to enforce gender steroetypes then trans people ever possibly could even if they wanted to. Which we don't.
 
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The RABL piece is really good on this, I think:
It’s easy to see why some explanations of trans people’s choices persist. The dominant narrative in society currently is that genders are a naturally occurring result of innate biological differences. It is assumed these probably came about through evolution, as sexist scientists retrospectively impose our current gender stereotypes on the past, in a Flintstones-style view of history, and conclude that male and female brains developed out of the “natural” roles that our reproductive organs are assumed to have landed us with. In fact gender is a far more recent human invention, but the oppression of women seemingly has to be justified somehow, whether by reference to God, science, or something else. This pop neuroscience can be used to give trans people legitimacy. If men and women really have man-brains and woman-brains, then it’s plausible we could have landed the wrong brain to go with our genitals somehow (or the wrong genitals to go with our brains, depending on your perspective). It seems easier to get a society already invested in gender essentialism to accept that we’ve just been put in the wrong box, than to get people to question everything they thought they knew about men and women. Arguing that the entire system is bullshit and needs to be torn down is a massive task and not going to get us any joy any time soon. It’s easy to see why some trans people prefer a narrative less threatening to the status quo, but this is not inherently part of being trans.

Still many ordinary trans people will talk about their transition in terms that recognise that gender is a role, not an innate quality, for example by talking about the time when they used to be a man or a woman. Exploring gender in the way that we do as trans people can often make its socially constructed nature more apparent to us, at the same time as living life as a trans person demonstrates the practical need to provide cis people with explanations for our choices which will get them off our backs.

A few parallels can be drawn to the gay rights movement. The claims to be “born this way” benefited the fight against homophobia within the existing narrative. Homosexuality was seen as a sin, which implicitly assumed a choice. Arguing that gay people can’t help being gay, and reinforcing this with the claim that it is strictly nature, not nurture, is a simpler step towards tolerance than trying to remove the negative associations with homosexuality. If being gay and trans are afflictions that can’t be helped, then it’s easier to argue that society has a responsibility to accommodate us. Of course without the existence of homophobia, choosing to be gay wouldn’t be a problem. It’s only in such a homophobic society that we so strongly associate the claim that it’s a choice with the view that it’s the wrong choice. Similarly arguing that trans people are born trans appears to be a more manageable path to acceptance, at the cost of supporting gender essentialist ideas...

But feminists have long been aware of the “double bind” that women face, otherwise known as “damned if you do, damned if you don’t”. It’s the trap that patriarchy sets for women. We are punished for stepping outside of our allocated role, but also punished for conforming to it. If women conform to societies expectations of what a woman should be like we are considered to have invited the misogyny, yet we provoke anger when we dare to exhibit qualities considered masculine.

As trans people we experience specific forms of this, as well as the usual classic examples. Trans women (as well as other transfeminine people) are considered to be “asking for” women’s oppression by lowering themselves to women’s status (as she loses the status of “man” whether or not misogynists have the decency to recognise she’s a woman) and people assigned female at birth (afab) who don’t identify as women are considered to deserve it as their birthright (often taking the form of being “put back in their place” for having the cheek to seemingly try to escape women’s status, and in the case of trans men dare claim the status of men). Under cissexist patriarchy only cis men are really men, the rest of us fall short of being considered fully human. We gain the biggest advantage when we are able to pass ourselves off as them. And if we can’t then if we’re lucky we can gain some lesser conditional advantages if, for example, we can display the right masculine qualities at the right time, or fit neatly into the role we’ve been assigned, or somehow demonstrate how unthreatening we are to the patriarchal status quo.
 
The RABL piece is really good on this, I think:
That is interesting.
I'd like to hear more about this bit, where they say "Similarly arguing that trans people are born trans appears to be a more manageable path to acceptance, at the cost of supporting gender essentialist ideas..."
So the author's clearly not of the opinion that there are mixups where people get born with a brain that belongs with the other sex, and they dont think people are born trans.
But from that short piece I'm without a clue what they are pointing towards as the alternative, to this, what might be the way to explaining transness which does not 'support gender essentialist ideas' .
So far (i havent looked for quite a while admittedly) I've not yet come across a trans person who has found a way to explain their realisation without recourse to gender stereotypes or roles (toys and so on).
 
And if abolishing these stereotypes was such a priority for the gender critical movement then where is the outrage at the beauty industy, cosmetic surgeons, the church, Hollywood and all the other institutions that do far more to enforce gender steroetypes then trans people ever possibly could even if they wanted to.
I still can only really speak of what a limited sample of women I know tell me. But I am very sure that they have been fighting against all those things their whole lives. And I don't think they see themselves as a "gender critical movement". That's a term applied to them by outsiders. We seem to have ended up with a situation where, if you don't agree with the definition of previously widely accepted terms being altered, you are part of a "movement".

And I don't think you would ever find them saying something like "trans people are enforcing gender stereotypes".

An illustrative scenario is one where a friend's child is into stuff that is traditionally associated with the other biological sex. In the olden days, that child would be encouraged not to do that. The girl would be discouraged from playing with guns or the boy would be discouraged from playing with make-up. Of course this kind of attitude is sadly still not confined to the past. But the feminist (and, just generally living in the 21st century) approach would be to let the child do as they will, and not have their options determined by their sex any more than they necessarily are by biological reality. However - the worry might be that we are moving to a situation where the child's preferences are taken to indicate that there should be serious consideration of them transitioning.

Now, I'm sure you will tell me that this is one of those "this doesn't actually happen very often at all" scenarios and I accept that to an extent, in particular to the extent that probably in the vast majority of cases the child is not encouraged to transition, along with the possibility that there might be some cases where choosing to transition is in fact in the best interests of the child. But this is a scenario that I've watched come up for real, in two separate cases. And what is definitely a problem is that it seems to have become incredibly difficult to just have a conversation about, without a lot of anxiety about being labelled a transphobe or similar. The whole thing is an awful mess; I don't know whose fault that is, but it's an awful mess and it seems like maybe people on both sides need to step back and make a more genuine effort to understand the contrary view rather than projecting views that aren't actually held.
 
I have to admit that I've never actually read it all the way through cos it's not the easiest of reads, but I sort of think of Gender Nihilism as being a fairly important text on this stuff? Also, very very long and semi-paywalled so you may need to open in incognito mode, but Who Do You Think You Are? by Jacqueline Rose is a really excellent piece of writing imo.
Also a bit dated now, terminology's changed a fair bit in the past decade, but I really like this Hackney Pride speech:
Every boy and girl, to some extent, has to grapple with the difference between who they are, and what a Real Man is. What a Real Woman is. Every body suffers from the invention of the Man and the Woman. And I consider myself an extreme casualty of this- I don’t really consider myself a Man- but I know, violently, that I’m not a woman.
 
Back in January, Contrapoints had some interesting takes on these questions (bigotry and understanding trans issues). Worth a look if you have an hour to spare. Quirky presentation, but worth persevering with:

 
Does there have to be an explanation for transgenderism?

When it comes to gay people, no one really seems to care any more, and that seems to have come along with increased tolerance.

One thing that is different with trans issues is that there may be requirements for interventions that come with significant risks. The medical model is limited here, but when talking about “treatments”, questions of aetiology become pertinent. There is a responsibility to minimise harms.
 
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