Is there a reason for the riots?

[Xcrutiate]

Oops my bad. Late Georgian it is. Should catch up on my history. Antiques roadshow on iplayer for me today.

 

[Kizmet]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14509831

I was bruised and battered
And I couldn't tell what I felt
I was unrecognizable to myself
Saw my reflection in a window
I didn't know my own face
Oh brother are you gonna leave me wasting away
On the streets of Philadelphia

I walked the avenue till my legs felt like stone
I heard the voices of friends vanished and gone
At night I could hear the blood in my veins
Just as black and whispering as the rain
On the streets of Philadelphia

Ain't no angel gonna greet me
It's just you and I my friend
And my clothes don't fit me no more
I walked a thousand miles just to slip this skin

The night has fallen, I'm lyin' awake
I can feel myself fading away
So receive me brother with your faithless kiss
Or will we leave each other alone like this
On the streets of Philadelphia

 

[Xcrutiate]

Nice poem. Not quite Blake. But who is.

 

[Kizmet]

The Boss.

 

[Xcrutiate]

Never liked Bruce Springsteen myself but each to their own.

 

[Kizmet]

Seemed appropriate... given the linked article...

 

[Xcrutiate]

i never follow links. They tend to generate bad health.

 

[Kizmet]

That one's high in fat and low in pro-teen.

 

[dennisr]

Con-Dems to blame for anger of youth - Mass, trade union-led response needed
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/12534

"An onlooker to the riots in Hackney was quoted in the Times as noting: "Unfortunately this is about as empowered as many of these lads have ever felt in their lives and ever will feel".
....
"It is not just the participants in the riots who will suffer the strong arm of the state forces, but trade unionists, anti-cuts campaigners, environment campaigners and others will now be faced with increased police powers and crowd control equipment in future struggles if the government's present plans are carried out."

"Cameron has said water cannon will be available at 24 hours notice. But a feature of the eruptions was "flash riots" - spreading fast through use of Blackberry Messenger and other social networking. Water cannon are useless in this type of situation as they can't be everywhere at once. But they can be used against more static crowds and pre-organised march routes, that are usual in organised demonstrations of the labour movement."

 

[butchersapron]

Very interesting and thoughtful piece from Kenan Malik: Moral Poverty and the Riots

The fact that the right has appropriated the language of morality has led many on the left to ignore moral arguments, indeed often to see such arguments as reactionary. That is a fatal mistake. Morality is as important to the left as it is to the right, though for very different reasons. There is no possibility of a political or economic vision of a different society without a moral vision too. Moral arguments lie at the heart of our understanding of social solidarity, and of the distinction between notions of social solidarity and pious rightwing claims of ‘we’re all in it together’. And that is why it also has to be at the heart of our understanding of the riots.

As a result, morality has come to be seen not as difficult choices that one has to wrestle with, or as norms that one works through within a collective setting, but as a set of predetermined rules provided as a state hand-out. Morality has ceased to be ours.

Because the right has appropriated the arguments about moral failure, many on the left have rejected moral arguments altogether. The left talks much about the social and economic impact of neo-liberal policies. But little about its moral impact. Such willful blindness is dangerous. The questions about economic and social poverty, about unemployment and the cuts, are closely related to the questions about moral poverty, about the breakdown of social solidarity and the rise of a nihilistic culture. There can be no challenge to mass unemployment and the imposition of austerity without the restoration of bonds of social solidarity. We cannot, in other words, cannot confront economic poverty if we do not also confront moral poverty. We need to remake our own language of morality, reforge our own moral norms.

 

[rekil]

the dude filming that had some balls

I think he's a known journalist but still. Story here about a bloke on the same demo who wasn't so lucky.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Very interesting and thoughtful piece from Kenan Malik: Moral Poverty and the Riots

There is clearly more to the riots than simple random hooliganism. But that does not mean that the riots, as many have claimed, are protests against disenfranchisement, social exclusion and wasted lives. In fact, it’s precisely because of disenfranchisement, social exclusion and wasted lives that these are not ‘protests’ in any way, but a mixture of incoherent rage, gang thuggery and teenage mayhem.

(my emphasis)

I think this is spot on ...

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Also ... some good stuff in a similar vein from David Harvey.

If we are lucky, we will have commissions and reports to say all over again what was said of Brixton and Toxteth in the Thatcher years. I say ‘lucky’ because the feral instincts of the current Prime Minister seem more attuned to turn on the water cannons, to call in the tear gas brigade and use the rubber bullets while pontificating unctuously about the loss of moral compass, the decline of civility and the sad deterioration of family values and discipline among errant youths.

But the problem is that we live in a society where capitalism itself has become rampantly feral. Feral politicians cheat on their expenses, feral bankers plunder the public purse for all its worth, CEOs, hedge fund operators and private equity geniuses loot the world of wealth, telephone and credit card companies load mysterious charges on everyone’s bills, shopkeepers price gouge, and, at the drop of a hat swindlers and scam artists get to practice three-card monte right up into the highest echelons of the corporate and political world.

A political economy of mass dispossession, of predatory practices to the point of daylight robbery, particularly of the poor and the vulnerable, the unsophisticated and the legally unprotected, has become the order of the day. Does anyone believe it is possible to find an honest capitalist, an honest banker, an honest politician, an honest shopkeeper or an honest police commisioner any more? Yes, they do exist. But only as a minority that everyone else regards as stupid. Get smart. Get Easy Profits. Defraud and steal! The odds of getting caught are low. And in any case there are plenty of ways to shield personal wealth from the costs of corporate malfeasance.

What I say may sound shocking. Most of us don’t see it because we don’t want to. Certainly no politician dare say it and the press would only print it to heap scorn upon the sayer. But my guess is that every street rioter knows exactly what I mean. They are only doing what everyone else is doing, though in a different way – more blatently and visibly in the streets. Thatcherism unchained the feral instincts of capitalism (the “animal spirits” of the entreprenuer they coyly named it) and nothing has transpired to curb them since. Slash and burn is now openly the motto of the ruling classes pretty much everywhere.

This is the new normal in which we live. This is what the next grand commission of enquiry should address. Everyone, not just the rioters, should be held to account. Feral capitalism should be put on trial for crimes against humanity as well as for crimes against nature.

Sadly, this is what these mindless rioters cannot see or demand. Everything conspires to prevent us from seeing and demanding it also. This is why political power so hastily dons the robes of superior morality and unctuous reason so that no one might see it as so nakedly corrupt and stupidly irrational.

http://davidharvey.org/2011/08/feral-capitalism-hits-the-streets/

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't believe british cops can do brutality. They may think they're brutal but they're not really. Goto Brazil to see Police brutality. They have it down to a tee. These rioters thought they looked so cool and radical as they rushed back home with their microwaves and HD Ready TV's tucked under their arms, just to watch themselves on the BBC. They must now look pathetic as they await the dreaded knock on their door. Shaking and sweating as they cower under their duvet. Alcohol has worn off now. Things don't seem as rosy as the night before.

Brutality is relative. Cops the world over do what their respective national laws let them get away with. I've seen fingers deliberately broken by our lovely coppers, I've seen faces pummelled and an elbow shattered and excused by the mantra of "he resisted arrest". I've seen and experienced horses being used to compress a group of people into a smaller and smaller space, until breathing was impossible.

Now please stop masturbating over your fantasies of looter existential angst. They're pathetic.

 

[gavman]

No your the mug. Just cause it's my first post don't think i'm subservient to you. Your posts or reputation on this board mean nothing to me.
I expressed an opinion. This is what this board is about. Opinions. Discussion. Mug.

and your opinion on this is vacuous

 

[treelover]

I'm just glad to see new posters on P/P...

 

[Xcrutiate]

if my opinion was so empty why make such a fuss. I beleive my first post was valid. You lot made it seem vacuous.

 

[Dr Dolittle]

Not sure that this is the most appropriate thread for this, but it will do.

Years ago, back in 1998, I read and kept Neal Ascherson's last column in the Independent on Sunday, in which he warned that the rampant capitalism that has taken over the world since the fall of Communism can't last: "Within a generation, it will be challenged."

Now it has been challenged, but not in the way Ascherson expected. He anticipated an organised political movement, not riots. But he was half right. Rampant capitalism may not be what the rioters themselves were consciously challenging, but plenty of people are blaming exactly that for the riots.

Here is the vintage article:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/we-live-under-the-most-arrogant-of-all-world-orders-but-it-will-not-last-1140730.html

 

[treelover]

http://london.indymedia.org/articles/9963

2000 on unity march in Tottenham

any media coverage?

or doesn't it fit the agenda..

 

[dennisr]

2000 on unity march in Tottenham

don't know if it was quite 2000 - but not bad. usual strange hackney mix

 

[Gmart]

I'm not sure I agree. I've net read anything that's convinced me that addiction doesn't have a significant biological component i.e. that one can inherit a predisposition to substance addiction. If you've got that, it doesn't matter whether you're from a deprived background or a "good" one, you're subject to the same forces.

Sadly it is difficult to imagine a society being run where one is able to declare that they are not responsible for their actions. Addiction can be dealt with by the individual in the vast majority of cases and help should be available at the doctors, but everyone is responsible for their actions from the bankers to the politicians to the rioters and they should be punished if they break them, without exception.

I am reminded again of an interview a few days ago with a young lady who claimed to be drinking looted wine. She stated that the aims of the riots were to show the rich that they could also get away with doing what they wanted too.

<snip>
September 24th 1826

Shows that we have had this problem for a long time. During the victorian age there were many disturbances demanding a better life but the relative strength of the British Enpire meant that there was a policy not unlike the current policy of Saudi Arabia - just throw money at it and don't change the basic causes.

Brutality is relative. Cops the world over do what their respective national laws let them get away with. I've seen fingers deliberately broken by our lovely coppers, I've seen faces pummelled and an elbow shattered and excused by the mantra of "he resisted arrest". I've seen and experienced horses being used to compress a group of people into a smaller and smaller space, until breathing was impossible.

I have also been on the sharp end of police violence, and have seen them remove their numbers so that I couldn't report them. Their existance is predicated on protecting parliament not protecting the people.

Cost of riots - 100m
Cost of bailing out the bankers - 800 bn

There are yobs at all levels of society. We need to have a discussion about what values we can agree on in the UK social contract.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

Con-Dems to blame for anger of youth - Mass, trade union-led response needed
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/12534

"An onlooker to the riots in Hackney was quoted in the Times as noting: "Unfortunately this is about as empowered as many of these lads have ever felt in their lives and ever will feel".

This is the most negative thing about the rioting, that it testifies to the weakness of leftist forces in organizing opposition to the government as well as taking on issues like the police brutality. All these years. It's been locals and individual campaigners protesting and marching. Seems like they've been entirely overlooked by others, like the Socialist Party themselves, for example.

 

[CyberRose]

I sincerely hope this is a joke.

Half the things I say on here are a joke, including the above. Why, were you concerned for me?!

I realise you are giving your opinions. What links do you want exactly, whislt I recognise your reluctance to take other people's word for it, you have been pointed in the right direction in terms of research you could do yourself which would inform you better.

...and this is where I think you are crossing wires. A 'deprived' background, how do you characterise that? Can you share your proof with me?

Also, it seems that you are linking 'deprived' with being stopped and searched, that tells me that you are not fully understanding that disproportionate police harrassment does not equal poverty, it equals racism when it is done on the basis of someone's skin colour.

Given that Black people/ethnic minorities are still that, minorities, in this country, I am a bit concerned that you are not acknowledging the existance of a significant number of White people who live in so called 'deprived' areas and 'deprivation'.

It's hard for me to explain myself clearly on here, especially a heated thread like this. Little snippets of my original post get a lot of attention then 10 pages later we are a million miles away from the point I was trying to make. I have made errors, like not taking into account white collar crime when saying most people who commit crime will come from a poor background (I still think that is correct, but not as correct as I had originally made out) and I hold my hands up to that now. I see from the above that I still haven't managed to explain what exactly I mean so I shall try again to simplify it having had a bit of time to think the best way how, but first a few points just so you know where I stand on some issues...

First, I accept that some policemen will be racist. I accept that institutionalised racism exists and will have had an impact on SAS stats (altho I do believe we have made good strides to resolving this problem over the last decade or so but obviously still work to do). If somebody is stopped on the basis of skin colour then that is racist and I do not support that.

So, my original point...The police will concentrate their resources on high crime areas. These high crime areas are likely (in general terms) to correspond to areas of high deprivation. That means people stopped by the police are likely to be from these areas (as that is the most likely explanation for somebody to be in that area), and if ethnic minorities are more likely to be from a deprived background than a white person then they are also more likely to be from the areas that the police are concentrating their resources on (inc stop searches) which I am saying could provide one reason why ethnic minorities turn up in greater proportions on stop search stats compared with white people. Also, if there is a link between deprivation and (certain types of) crime, then if certain groups are more likely to be suffering deprivation then it is not out of the question that members of that group may turn up in a greater proportion compared to their population. All I wanted to say is that if we lay the blame for all this only on racism, then I think we can miss a trick in also highlighting the social inequalities that can lead to areas suffering high crime rates or some people becoming involved in crime.

Anyway, I think I have said all I can on this issue...

 

[Bernie Gunther]

What's a "high-crime area" though? You seem to think the total number of crimes/perpetrators is more important than the total impact of the crimes. That may be so, but it definitely doesn't go without saying ...

In terms of amount of money stolen and overall misery and suffering generated, it's by no means impossible that 'high crime area' would mean the City of London above all.

ETA this is kind of why I got a bit snippy with you the other day, for which I apologise.

 

[CyberRose]

What's a "high-crime area" though? You seem to think the total number of crimes/perpetrators is more important than the total impact of the crimes. That may be so, but it definitely doesn't go without saying ...

I'm just saying that police concentrate their resources in certain areas, so in this respect, they are the ones that decide what a high crime area is (ie which area they want to concentrate on)

In terms of amount of money stolen and overall misery and suffering generated, it's by no means impossible that 'high crime area' would mean the City of London above all.

Heh if we were deciding on what high crime areas were then I'd be right behind you on that one! But hopefully the above explains what I mean?

ETA this is kind of why I got a bit snippy with you the other day, for which I apologise.

No worries. I'm not really saying this is how things should be, rather, this is how I think things are

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I'm just saying that police concentrate their resources in certain areas, so in this respect, they are the ones that decide what a high crime area is (ie which area they want to concentrate on)

<snip>

This is a very political decision I think.

 

[Dr Dolittle]

I don't agree with Kenan Malik's view (quoted by Butcher's Apron) that the left have ignored the right's moral posturing. A lot of them have accused the right of moral hypocracy.

 

[butchersapron]

Over the morals that that they've constructed.

The question is whose morals organise society and how can we construct them/how are they constructed.

 

[scalyboy]

Poetry.

Blimey! Impassioned and enthralling speech, I wish I could speak like him!

 

[treelover]

Read new poster Shaun Balls's experiences of people's reactions to the riots, he works for the NHS, its terrifying...