Is Reading Marx Necessary?

[danny la rouge]

No. You and the rest of your arrogant tosser, ineffective fucking communists are embarrassing.

Anarchists : Shall we have a revolution

Commie: No we need a transitional period.

over and over again.

Jesus. What are you even on about? I'm an anarchist. I value Marx's critique of capital. His insight, his incision, his rigour. You seem to have some half-cocked confusion about what Marx actually focussed on in his writing. It suggests to me you actually haven't read much Marx, as opposed to reading about him. You almost certainly haven't read the Critique of the Gotha Programme. (It's included in Euegene Kamenka's anthology, but it's hardly his best-known piece of writing. Were it not for Marxism-Leninism's interpretation, you wouldn't know about it). But that's the only place he talked in any detail about the transition; the dictatorship of the proletariat. Yet that's your main concern.

You seem also to be forgetting that Chomsky read Marx and valued his insight. But for you to compare the two is bonkers. They have completely different foci. I value many of Chomsky's insights. I've even corresponded with him. He has deeply disappointed me on Syria, but for you to set up this bizarre binary that one either likes Marx or Chomsky just can't be based on having read either very closely!

I have you on ignore because you come out with this vacuous bollocks. When this thread kept being bumped I took you off ignore to see what was going on. I'm sorry I did, because you're an empty vessel.

 

[Ralph Llama]

Bullshit you pretentious so and so. Saying that reading Marx is essential ? For what ? A position within the intellectual elite? FUCK OFF .

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Essential if you want a more nuanced understanding of the world than a teenager with some Crass albums.

 

[Shechemite]

a teenager with some Crass albums.

Would be an improvement on Ralph Llama

 

[danny la rouge]

Bullshit you pretentious so and so. Saying that reading Marx is essential ? For what ? A position within the intellectual elite? FUCK OFF .

If that's a reply to me, then not only have you not read Marx, you haven't even read the thread. So you're just making yourself look extremely foolish.

 

[Ralph Llama]

I hold to my original point.

That Marxism is Idealism and Anarchy is realism, so you would be better off reading an anarchists analysis.... cos you might get dragged into some sordid state politics otherwise.

Essential if you want a more nuanced understanding of the world than a teenager with some Crass albums.

Who probably have a better understanding of the situation than you

 

[gawkrodger]

have the school holidays started early?

 

[Ralph Llama]

ask Kropotkin

 

[Riklet]

In what way was Marx not 'involved' in anti capitalist struggle? Just idealism?

Participated in 1848 revolutions and uprisings.
Political refugee for most of his life.
Communicated with revolutinaries and workers movements and political groups in like 5 different languages for years.
Learnt Russian because he wanted to understand the latest economic news coming out of Russia and he viewed it as so important for the future.
Lived in relative poverty for most of his life, several of his kids die cos he didnt have that much money etc.
Worked for 12 hours a day most of his life on 6 hours sleep to produce some of his most important texts on capital, capitalism and its future. And about a bajillion letters. And a whole load more.
Contributed to the rise of the British labour movement, which won some of the biggest gains against capital in Europe for decades afterwards.

Noam Chomsky did some talk to a bunch of lefties in Cardiff I went to and it was kind of interesting. But a realist? Lolies. What an absolute insult to compare his struggles against capital to that of Marx.


I think Marx is important useful and interesting whether or not you agree with him and what 'Marxists' have done. Only one way to find out if you agree/disagree tho!

 

[danny la rouge]

I hold to my original point.

That Marxism is Idealism and Anarchy is realism, so you would be better off reading an anarchists analysis.... cos you might get dragged into some sordid state politics otherwise.



Who probably have a better understanding of the situation than you

You're doing this either or thing. It's weird. It's especially weird for someone who claims to be a critical thinker to be basing your position on heroes instead of ideas. Pick a team instead of have some ideas. That's your attitude.

I'm an anarchist communist. But that's a position; it isn't hero worship of Kropotkin. It doesn't mean I agree with all that Kropotkin did or said. Because I don't. I'm not a Kropotkinist. I'm an anarchist. Just as I can find ideas of value in the work of Proudhon, Bakunin, Malatesta and so on without agreeing with everything they said or did. This is called being able to analyse and come to judgements by oneself.

What I hate about your shtick is this snobbery that suggests because I've read some books I must come from a privileged background. It's snobbery because it says working class people shouldn't read. You tell that to my late grandad who gave me a Penguin Tacitus for my 11th birthday. He was a machine turner. Or my Mum, who introduced me to Dickens, and who was an admin worker in a printers. It's just shit thinking that it's an intellectual elite who read. You read, you claim. Why is it my reading that's a problem? I've read Manufacturing Consent many times. When you read it, it wasn't a problem. But because I've read Marx as well as Chomsky, I'm pretentious and part of an "intellectual elite".

It's anti working class bollocks and it's why you're a liberal and not a revolutionary.

 

[Ralph Llama]

Riklet - Look into Chomsky`s life a little closer.

The either or thing is due to the fact that most people don`t have the time to read everything.

I am saying that anarchist critic is more relevant because anarchism is based on things as they are so therefore, it is by definition more pragmatic.

Das Capital is abstract and so by definition ideological.

As an anarchist I would suggest starting with the pragmatic.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

In what way is Capital abstract?

 

[Ralph Llama]

In every way It is theory.

It is a theory on materialist principles.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

In every way It is theory.

It is a theory on materialist principles.

What is abstract about bosses forcing people to work longer hours?

Or the cost of a piece of wood?

 

[Ralph Llama]

It obviously still has a lot of relevancy, but there is a lot more relevant studies on capitalism now.

 

[butchersapron]

Name names.

What is it's 'relevancy' today?

 

[Ralph Llama]

Kropotkin, Mikhaill Bakunin, Julian Assange , Noam Chomsky.

 

[JimW]

You're just showing your arse here Ralph. And it's spotty.

 

[butchersapron]

Kropotkin, Mikhaill Bakunin, Julian Assange , Noam Chomsky.

Shut up you prat.

When someone namedrops like you they have never really met the person or it was the jimmy savile sunday fund club.

Stop wasting people's time.

 

[Ralph Llama]

Say something relevant to the thread or fuck off

Shut up you prat.


When someone namedrops like you they have never really met the person or it was the jimmy savile sunday fund club.


Stop wasting people's time.

Your not making any sense, as usual .... name dropped ? You just ask me to name alternatives. I have not met any of them... WTF are you on?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

That Marxism is Idealism and Anarchy is realism,

Marxism is materialism. You know this which is why you’re trying to wind people up when you say it’s idealism: its philosophical opposite.

Unless you don’t know what you’re on about.

Read some Engles.

 

[Ralph Llama]

No I was not on a wind up. Das Capital is abstract.

 

[butchersapron]

Kropotkin, Mikhaill Bakunin, Julian Assange , Noam Chomsky.

Marxism is materialism. You know this which is why you’re trying to wind people up when you say it’s idealism: its philosophical opposite.

Unless you don’t know what you’re on about.

Read some Engles.

Or marks.

Why are you assuming this waste of space ...ah fuck it

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Fair dos.

 

[LDC]

...Julian Assange...

Where's the 'ffs, that's a mix of hilarious and tragic' emoticon when you need it?

Come on then Ralph Llama, what insights into capital does Assange offer that are more rigorous and useful than Marx?

 

[Ralph Llama]

Ask the Icelandic.


Edit:

All I am doing is expressing the notion that Capital may not be essential reading when understanding Capitalism.

You would think I`d just fucked the pope up the arse !

 

[gawkrodger]

Julian Assange

hahahahahhahahahaha

 

[LDC]

Ask the Icelandic.


Edit:

All I am doing is expressing the notion that Capital may not be essential reading when understanding Capitalism.

You would think I`d just fucked the pope up the arse !

No, you were asked to name people who have written more relevant critiques of capital, and you said Assange.

Why? Come on, what's he written that's better?

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Mutual Aid is just as abstract/concrete as Capital.

I mean, that’s my position having actually read and enjoyed them both.

 

[Ralph Llama]

No, you were asked to name people who have written more relevant critiques of capital, and you said Assange.

Why? Come on, what's he written that's better?

Didn't get the hint ?Do you know why I told you to ask Iceland ?


Assange is a journalist/activist. This in it`s own right is a very real and substantial continual criticism of the existing system that is obviously more immediately useful when understanding capitalism now.