Dillinger4
Es gibt Zeit
It isn't a very big jump at all though is it.
Is Elon Musk the greatest visionary or the greatest snake oil salesman of our age?
- Thread starter tim
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belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Hop step and a jump.
Dillinger4
Es gibt Zeit
let's also discuss the links between Elon Musk specifically and the russian state:
Elon Musk has been in regular contact with Putin for two years, says report
Elon Musk has been in regular contact with Putin for two years, says report
gosub
~#
There probably are areas where US government could be more efficient.
However...if your first priority is name and logo branding..You probably won't find them
Dillinger4
Es gibt Zeit
I appreciate that I am taking a particular stance here, and I do need to emphasise that I am not advocating for some kind of literal Manchurian candidate scenario. I am trying to argue for something much more complex than that.
The russian state has the destabilisation of the US as a policy. They have the means to pursue this through an acknowledged method as active measures. There is a long history of interaction between Trump and Putin and arguably also with a large number of republicans, some of whom will be part of the incoming us government. There is a benefit for Russia in destabilising the US and NATO as it will aid them in pursuing their policy objectives as outlined above.
Rather than a hop step and a jump, it is a logical progression based on evidence. Of course, it is much easier to believe that this couldn't possibly be the case.
Dillinger4
Es gibt Zeit
for example, ldc, you wrote earlier that
Donald Trump has been a critic of NATO since the 80s following a visit to Moscow. He has stated over the past years that he would like the US to exit NATO, and this could very possibly now occur. Can you explain the capitalist economics behind dismantling NATO? It doesn't make very much sense when you consider for example the US defence industry and the money made through selling arms to European countries. Perhaps there are other influences at play than the simple explanation you have offered.
I would love to believe in the simple explanation that it's all just 'capitalist economics' and offer no further explanation or thought to such a statement. It strikes me as simplistic to an absurd degree.
Donald Trump has been a critic of NATO since the 80s following a visit to Moscow. He has stated over the past years that he would like the US to exit NATO, and this could very possibly now occur. Can you explain the capitalist economics behind dismantling NATO? It doesn't make very much sense when you consider for example the US defence industry and the money made through selling arms to European countries. Perhaps there are other influences at play than the simple explanation you have offered.
I would love to believe in the simple explanation that it's all just 'capitalist economics' and offer no further explanation or thought to such a statement. It strikes me as simplistic to an absurd degree.
Dillinger4
Es gibt Zeit
Already in a few posts you have gone from
to
So you were, quite literally, mistaken.
to
So you were, quite literally, mistaken.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
There's a wing of the US capitalist class and (some of the population) that are clearly isolationist in foreign policy, Trump is the representation of the wing. Capitalism is far from reductionist and simplistic, it has numerous tendencies (some in competition) including related cultural and other strands.
There are plenty of other NATO critics, are they all in the pay of Russia? There are plenty of other leaders around the world with some shared politics, are they all Russian agents as well?
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
No, my first post was to your suggestion that this whole thing is a plan by Trump (and others) to weaken the US State for the benefit of foreign powers and enemies of the US. There is no evidence for that at all, whereas there is evidence for the statement that States (including Russia in the US) interfere in each others internal affairs.
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Dillinger4
Es gibt Zeit
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
No, it's not logical progression based on evidence. There is evidence of Russian State agencies & Trump contact (as there probably would be of any influential and rich businessperson visiting the US). There's no evidence he's acting as he is now at the behest of the Russian State which si what you said, that's just conspiracy nonsense.
This stuff is partly why bits of the left are so shit, some of it has wishful thinking and imagined narratives rather than a political analysis to guide it. It leads people and organisations into all sorts of erroneous directions about what to do politically, I mean look at the Democracts and their campaign and loss.
Dillinger4
Es gibt Zeit
Good, so you agree with me that states interfere with other states affairs. Now the question is, to what extent? I have provided a small amount of evidence that shows the policy aims of the russian state and the means they have to carry it out, through means such as active measures, and possibly long term direct influence on Donald Trump? Is it simply a coincidence that stated russian policy aims, for example, promoting isolationist tendancies, are now being fulfilled?
gosub
~#
Boeing is the US 's largest exporter..or was a succession of poor management decisions has reduced its shares to junk. I can remember when the last 7467 rolled off the production line under Trump's last Presidency.. The end of an era and an icon...didn't even warrant a mention by Trump, whom at the time was focusing on statues to confederate generals so not sure coherent explanation possible
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
You didn't suggest this. You said DOGE and Trump and the appointments he was making were acting at the behest of Russia to weaken the US State from within as part of a grand plan.
Do you smoke a lot of weed?
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
To think that means no further thought or analysis is quite weird tbh; understanding capital and how it works, changes and manifests itself in different countries through different tendencies (some competing) is somewhat complicated, but at least can (hopefully sometimes) offer coherent and reasoned arguments rather than imagined conspiracies.
Dillinger4
Es gibt Zeit
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
Dillinger4
Es gibt Zeit
Lets summarise, you have gone from:
to
to
to
You have been very quick to dismiss what I have said as 'conspiracy nonsense'. You have resorted to dismissal and ad hominem arguments, and you have dropped some vague statements about capitalism is complicated. You don't really seem to have a consistent position here, and your argument is weak.
to
to
to
You have been very quick to dismiss what I have said as 'conspiracy nonsense'. You have resorted to dismissal and ad hominem arguments, and you have dropped some vague statements about capitalism is complicated. You don't really seem to have a consistent position here, and your argument is weak.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
All those quotes of mine are consistent, not positions that are contradictory.
Anyway, you still haven't given any evidence that Trump and everything he's doing now is at the bidding of the Russian State (I mean you said powers and enemies as well, are other States involved?) as you initially suggested. Does that go for his previous term as well?
I give up though, can't be arsed arguing with unevidenced conspiracy nonsense. This stuff is important, working out the actual dynamics and what's going on and how to counter it is critical, making shit up about how Russia is behind it neglects that, makes the left look mad, and doesn't lead to any actual workable organising strategy.
Anyway, you still haven't given any evidence that Trump and everything he's doing now is at the bidding of the Russian State (I mean you said powers and enemies as well, are other States involved?) as you initially suggested. Does that go for his previous term as well?
I give up though, can't be arsed arguing with unevidenced conspiracy nonsense. This stuff is important, working out the actual dynamics and what's going on and how to counter it is critical, making shit up about how Russia is behind it neglects that, makes the left look mad, and doesn't lead to any actual workable organising strategy.
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BigMoaner
What A Load of Old Bollocks
Mary Poppins, what a fucking wanker.
Dillinger4
Es gibt Zeit
You went full circle. From dismissal as 'unevidenced conspiracy nonsense' to broadly agreeing with me, and back to 'unevidenced conspiracy nonsense' all the while not engaging with what I have said, a bit of ad hominem, some weak nonsense about how capitalism is complicated and some grievances against 'the left', a whole lot of nothing, and now you are giving up, that's probably the most useful contribution you have made here.
For what its worth, I have no problem saying my initial statement was pretty extreme, and it is not exactly what I believe to be true, at least not in the very simplistic way that in which I presented it. I do think there is some amount of direct influence by Russia on Trump, and that this has developed over many years. I think there is quite convincing evidence to support this. to what extent is debateable, and I don't think it is the only factor on Trump or right wing ideology in the US. I don't think it is the only factor.
I agree that this is important, and working out the dynamics of how to counter it is critical. I do not agree that I am simply 'making stuff up about Russia', you yourself have agreed that states have influence on other states, the question really is to what extent, and there is certainly evidence available to suggest that the state of affairs with Trump is really unprecedented, at the very least compared to other US presidents. I am talking about things like the Steele Dossier, or the Helsinki summit in which Trump and Putin met for two hours without any US advisors in the room, there are lots of very strange things going on, and yes even in the previous term. I don't think the Russian influence on Trump explains everything, but it certainly is a factor, in that surely you must agree, and if you do then it is debate as to what extent.
I really am pretty upset about this election result, so yeh, my initial statement was pretty extreme and that statement in itself is not supported by evidence. I do not literally believe in a grand plot in which Trump guts the US Government from the inside, but also, at the same time, that is exactly what is about to happen, and it really would be to the benefit of Russia for that to happen, it is a stated policy aim as I said somewhere above, and they have the means to follow through on this through active measures, and there is at least some evidence that russia has some kind of influence on Trump.
Dillinger4
Es gibt Zeit
It was fair for you to say unevidenced conspiracy nonsense. There is a leap I have taken there, and I acknowledge that.
I said this somewhere else, I really do feel like I am reeling from this election result. After election night, I shut down completely for about a week. I haven't read any news, I haven't really talked about it anywhere. I haven't posted here for a long time, this was my first attempt at trying to say anything about this election result. Yeh I did take a leap, but also, I do think there is some evidence for at least some of what I have said. But it would only be part of an understanding, not the only factor.
I said this somewhere else, I really do feel like I am reeling from this election result. After election night, I shut down completely for about a week. I haven't read any news, I haven't really talked about it anywhere. I haven't posted here for a long time, this was my first attempt at trying to say anything about this election result. Yeh I did take a leap, but also, I do think there is some evidence for at least some of what I have said. But it would only be part of an understanding, not the only factor.
klang
klang
I think they referred to the stronger varieties.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
OK, fair enough, thanks for the explanation. And I apologise for being harsh and using a personal quip.
Yes, it's grim but tbh entirely predictable from what I saw, read and listened to in the build-up. I think there's so much denial, wishful thinking, making jokes about it, & poor analysis in the broad left about it, and it's that which is partly what stops us being able to halt and reverse these gains the right have made, also across large parts of the western world. So I do have a pretty low tolerance of conspiracy thinking on it, and that was what I reacting against with your initial post.
Boris Sprinkler
Dont be scared
Dillinger4
Es gibt Zeit
Yeh, completely understandable. I agree that we need to deal with facts, not unsupported speculation. It really isn't helpful. This election has affected me like nothing else. I am scared about what will happen next, in a way that I have never been before. I think taking an extreme position and then arguing about it is an an expression of that. I know it doesn't seem like it from this thread but I generally have a low tolerance against conspiritorial thinking as well. It has been useful for me to be talked out of it. Thank you, and sorry.
Yossarian
⏭️
I guess if he's allowed to make up the name for his "cost-cutting department" that isn't a government department and won't have any power to make cuts, he gets to pick the logo as well
Serene
Slightly disgruntled
Trump reportedly says he ‘can’t get rid’ of Musk: ‘Elon won’t go home’ President-elect Donald Trump seemingly can’t shake off his new best friend Elon Musk.
The SpaceX owner is said to have been an almost constant presence at Trump’s Mar-a-Lago residence in Florida since the presidential election, with the pair regularly dining together and even sharing a game of golf.Musk has also regularly sat in when Trump made calls to other world leaders, including with Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelensky.
Tech journalist Kara Swisher told CNN on Sunday (10 November) that Musk’s presence had even unnerved some of Trump’s other advisors, who allegedly called it odd.
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