Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[Anju]

Probably less to do with bacon and more to do with material realities, for instance whether you are reliant on your own labour for income, alternatively whether you have sufficient social and cultural capital (connections and so forth) that fears of poverty don't really bother you. Reckon probably a more solid barometer than what bacon you like or what job a grandparent did or whether you know how to say quinoa or whatever

I just found the bacon thing amusing as we have both in the fridge.

So basically no solid definition exists. My wife, black working class, taught me how to pronounce quinoa and she makes kombucha which seems extra middle class to me, plus she has a degree but never had a job where she is in charge of anyone.

I work for quite a lot of middle class people and it seems like travel habits are the thing that defines them. We go away once every 2-3 years but they seem to holiday 2-3 times a year plus weekends away monthly.

 

[danny la rouge]

So basically no solid definition exists.

I posted a perfectly good one.

 

[Proper Tidy]

I just found the bacon thing amusing as we have both in the fridge.

So basically no solid definition exists. My wife, black working class, taught me how to pronounce quinoa and she makes kombucha which seems extra middle class to me, plus she has a degree but never had a job where she is in charge of anyone.

I work for quite a lot of middle class people and it seems like travel habits are the thing that defines them. We go away once every 2-3 years but they seem to holiday 2-3 times a year plus weekends away monthly.

Well a solid definition does exist, I used it in my post

 

[Anju]

I posted a perfectly good one.

Well a solid definition does exist, I used it in my post

I suppose I was hoping for something easy to measure. How to define something like being dependent on your own labour for managers who are just paid a wage seems like it would be a sticking point.

No expecting an answer, just acknowledging your replies. Already spent too much time online this weekend.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Class through identify politics. My grandad was a miner. Nah.

You learn something every day. My great grandad on my maternal grandfather's side owned a factory and significant shares in a major life assurance company.

I'm a fucking capitalist

Do my bidding prole scum

 

[teuchter]

Well a solid definition does exist, I used it in my post

It's not really a 'solid' definition, more a guide to determining the extent to which someone is working class - ish. I've yet to see any widely agreed upon definition which allows you to definitively say someone is or isn't 'working class'.

 

[Serge Forward]

My great grandad owned a fairground boxing booth and my grandad bought a greengrocers shop with a fight purse. Fill yer boots, trots... I'm a petty bourgeois anarchist

 

[brogdale]

It's like some folk on here have never bothered to explore Marxian class theory.

 

[brogdale]

My great grandad owned a fairground boxing booth and my grandad bought a greengrocers shop with a fight purse. Fill yer boots, trots... I'm a petty bourgeois anarchist

Wasn't there a song about a petty bourgeois anarchist hero being something to be?

 

[Proper Tidy]

It's not really a 'solid' definition, more a guide to determining the extent to which someone is working class - ish. I've yet to see any widely agreed upon definition which allows you to definitively say someone is or isn't 'working class'.

Why isn't this definitive

 

[SpineyNorman]

It's not really a 'solid' definition, more a guide to determining the extent to which someone is working class - ish. I've yet to see any widely agreed upon definition which allows you to definitively say someone is or isn't 'working class'.

I don't believe you.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's not really a 'solid' definition, more a guide to determining the extent to which someone is working class - ish. I've yet to see any widely agreed upon definition which allows you to definitively say someone is or isn't 'working class'.

If you are the hereditary head of state you are not a horny-handed child of toil, i think you'll find that's widely accepted

 

[teuchter]

Why isn't this definitive

Why isn't what definitive?

 

[Proper Tidy]

Why isn't what definitive?

Why isn't the definition definitive? Don't you read your own posts

 

[Supine]

Why isn't the definition definitive? Don't you read your own posts

Because it's dated and difficult to relate to modern jobs?

 

[teuchter]

Why isn't the definition definitive? Don't you read your own posts

If you are on about the two alternative definitions you gave, both have terms that require further definition. Which one would you like to start with?

 

[brogdale]

Because it's dated and difficult to relate to modern jobs?

Oh, is capitalism over, then?

 

[danny la rouge]

It's not really a 'solid' definition, more a guide to determining the extent to which someone is working class - ish. I've yet to see any widely agreed upon definition which allows you to definitively say someone is or isn't 'working class'.

An old post that goes more fully into matters.

(I link to it because I remember it, not because nobody wrote anything better, just brain storage issue).

 

[Proper Tidy]

Because it's dated and difficult to relate to modern jobs?

In what way is it difficult to relate?

 

[Proper Tidy]

If you are on about the two alternative definitions you gave, both have terms that require further definition. Which one would you like to start with?

We'll start with the terms you don't understand I suppose

 

[Pickman's model]

We'll start with the terms you don't understand I suppose

We'll be here till hell freezes over then

 

[Pickman's model]

Because it's dated and difficult to relate to modern jobs?

Modern jobs such as....

 

[teuchter]

We'll start with the terms you don't understand I suppose

Probably less to do with bacon and more to do with material realities, for instance whether you are reliant on your own labour for income,

First question here is what you mean by 'reliant' - does it mean that it's your only source of income, or does it mean that it is your main source of income, or does it mean that it's a great enough portion of your income that without it you wouldn't be able to support yourself financially? Or something else?

alternatively whether you have sufficient social and cultural capital (connections and so forth) that fears of poverty don't really bother you.

What does this mean - does it mean that you are confident that whatever happens, you will be able to find another job? Does it mean that you are confident that whatever happens someone will support you financially?

 

[Proper Tidy]

First question here is what you mean by 'reliant' - does it mean that it's your only source of income, or does it mean that it is your main source of income, or does it mean that it's a great enough portion of your income that without it you wouldn't be able to support yourself financially? Or something else?


What does this mean - does it mean that you are confident that whatever happens, you will be able to find another job? Does it mean that you are confident that whatever happens someone will support you financially?

So it's the words reliant and fear you didn't understand?

 

[teuchter]

So it's the words reliant and fear you didn't understand?

Maybe someone will be able to answer the questions on your behalf.

 

[teuchter]

An old post that goes more fully into matters.

(I link to it because I remember it, not because nobody wrote anything better, just brain storage issue).

Taken from what you wrote there -

The role of the worker is clear: they depend on the capitalist for income, and they don’t own the products of their labour: they aren’t really selling the products as such (they aren’t making stuff to hawk around different potential customers); they’re selling their labour.

Let's say I think of a sole practitioner structural engineer, working in 2019. They don't employ anyone as such. They might do some work for a property developer, effectively on a time basis as a consultant. Work that assists the developer in building on a site, or refurbishing a building or whatever. It's stuff the developer needs to do to create their 'product' which they hawk around and eventually sell at a profit. This all seems quite parallel to the artisan weaver of old. They are selling their time (and knowledge and skill) but not the product of their labour, which is a building which has the quality of probably-not-going-to-fall-down.

So is that structural engineer a 'worker' and working class or are they what I'd presume them to be which is middle class? Maybe their underlying financial position is relevant: let's assume they have had no significant inheritance come their way, and they are in privately rented housing, both of which are quite plausible scenarios for someone with that job.

 

[danny la rouge]

So is that structural engineer a 'worker' and working class

I don’t know what structural engineers earn. This is relevant not because “working class” is a synonym for poverty, but because it’s a social and economic relationship. Do they have to work for their wage, or do they have accumulated financial assets that could be (not that they’ve used it, but could) could be used for buying property to rent out, or other such capital investment ventures? In other words property that they use or could use to economically exploit others. This would put them in a different relation to those being thus exploited.

 

[teuchter]

I don’t know what structural engineers earn. This is relevant not because “working class” is a synonym for poverty, but because it’s a social and economic relationship. Do they have to work for their wage, or do they have accumulated financial assets that could be (not that they’ve used it, but could) could be used for buying property to rent out, or other such capital investment ventures? In other words property that they use or could use to economically exploit others. This would put them in a different relation to those being thus exploited.

They generally earn fairly well so yes, potentially over time they could save enough to buy a property (beyond what they need to live in) that they could then rent out.
What you say makes sense but suggests there is a level of earnings above which no-one can claim to be working class - would that be fair to say?

 

[kabbes]

What you say makes sense but suggests there is a level of earnings above which no-one can claim to be working class - would that be fair to say?

I can’t think of a reason why this wouldn’t be true. Approach it from the other end — could someone receiving a billion a year ever be working class? If not, that proves there is such a level and we are just at the point of deciding where it is.

 

[danny la rouge]

They generally earn fairly well so yes, potentially over time they could save enough to buy a property (beyond what they need to live in) that they could then rent out.
What you say makes sense but suggests there is a level of earnings above which no-one can claim to be working class - would that be fair to say?

Class is a relationship defined by economic role in society. It’s not about thresholds, but social relations.