Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[Supine]

I'm finding the discussion useful because it's not clear to me.

So like shares your class can go up and down depending on circumstance?

 

[kabbes]

I'm finding the discussion useful because it's not clear to me.

So like shares your class can go up and down depending on circumstance?

Don’t think of class as a property of a person. It’s not a feature of them, like eye colour.

What speed is a BMW? Well, that question makes no sense, does it? The speed is a result of the interaction of the BMW and it’s environment. It’s not a static feature of the car itself.

 

[danny la rouge]

I'm finding the discussion useful because it's not clear to me.

So like shares your class can go up and down depending on circumstance?

Yes, although in practise you have to take into account things like social capital.

Bit busy now. Will come back.

 

[kabbes]

Yes, although in practise you have to take into account things like social capital.

Bit busy now. Will come back.

Indeed — some cars have the capacity for greater speed than others.

 

[teuchter]

Don’t think of class as a property of a person. It’s not a feature of them, like eye colour.

What speed is a BMW? Well, that question makes no sense, does it? The speed is a result of the interaction of the BMW and it’s environment. It’s not a static feature of the car itself.

Perhaps it would be useful for people to replace the term "working class" with "currently working class".

 

[Wilf]

Three years and this is all there is from the left side of Brexit?

Both the things you have linked to are just wish lists. Whoever is leading this didn't even bother to do half a days work on a website before putting out the founding statement. Where's the social media, how are the working class going to hear about this and get involved? Where's the list of union meetings or actions. Where's the press coverage? Three years, I've seen better campaigns put together in three days.

It's just the usual suspects going round in circles, ever decreasing circles if this is the extent of their efforts.

Then there's the actual content. The list of countries we will be trading with excludes the US and gives no idea how these new relationships will be more beneficial to us and the countries concerned. How to deal with Brazil for example.

How are, British, BAME people actually being represented when 75% voted remain. Same with NI and again no mention of the referendum result there. Are their views just wrong so it's OK for you to do what's best for them and simply ignore the stated aims regarding democracy.

Can't argue with some the realities of EU refugee policy but we don't have a party offering an egalitarian immigration and refugee policy so effectively no solution is offered by LeFT. At least some EU countries have resettled new arrivals to Italy and Greece. Last time I checked we had resettled 0 people and neither main party has committed to changing this. It could be that staying in the EU would lead to Britain being forced to adopt a better refugee policy. Not saying it will but it's as likely as Brexit leading to the same, possibly more so as the more powerful members would like a quota system.

Everybody here makes the assumption that I'm middle class. I'm not and neither are most of my social circle, yet none of us voted leave. How are we represented by LeFT? Against our will? Condescendingly from above? LeFT statements should at least qualify their use of the term with something like "leave voting working class"

Still at least we've got lots of time. Oh.

I can see the backstop issue being solved by rebranding it a border solution with agreed goals that the UK must meet. Basically changing the whole we can't leave without EU permission to we have agreed the solution and will be out when we implement it just like we wanted all along. Same thing different description. If not then it could be no deal exit in a couple of months.

Tories are already in election mode and doing stuff like this.
NHS bosses ordered to 'stick to script' that no-deal Brexit must happen on 31 October if necessary

If LeFT and their tiny website are the response to Tory Brexit everyone who's experienced abuse, lost their job or suffered from the drop in the pound as a result of the leave vote can sleep well tonight in the knowledge that another statement will be along shortly.

A belated reply to this, the underlined in particular and, in a vague way, the whole post (also, for clarification, I'm not involved in LeFT, so this is just me): Brexit is centre stage, with multiple accusations about on one side remainy middle class politics and on the other, accusations that the Lexit left are in some way colluding with racist sentiments (which are wide of the mark). FWIW, personally, I personally could never vote for the EU, but there wasn't anything like a Lexit campaign/vision to get on board with in 2016, so I didn't vote. I do welcome the LeFT campaign, but yeah, I don't really see how it's going to insert itself into working class politics at this point in the game.

But as with so much of the Brexit saga, the cart has been firmly in front of the horse throughout. The absence of working class resistance and politics meant that we got a Brexit vote and not a Lexit vote. And time and time again it seems like the question is posed in terms of where working class/black or other groups should position themselves on Brexit - or indeed whether the Labour Party or other groups are lined up with working class and other groups on Brexit. As an aside, this has left the left the Labour Party doing little more than seeking opportunities, not actually battling capital. But that's not my point here. Surely the best thing to do is if you are concerned about refugees is to get involved in campaigns on migration, against deportations? Surely the working class people you are talking about - inc. yourself - should get involved in working class politics? None of that makes Brexit disappear, but an organised working class politics changes the game entirely. Cart>>>>> Horse.

 

[danny la rouge]

Perhaps it would be useful for people to replace the term "working class" with "currently working class".

Flying visit. But quick thought. You are like an atomic physicist who wants to know about valency but is stuck on defining one particular particle rather than its relationship with others.

 

[Pickman's model]

Flying visit. But quick thought. You are like an atomic physicist who wants to know about valency but is stuck on defining one particular particle rather than its relationship with others.

cue teuchter enquiring about meanings of atomic, physicist, valency, particle

 

[Wilf]

cue teuchter enquiring about meanings of atomic, physicist, valency, particle

Bitzer Teuchter:

"Quadruped. Graminivorous. Forty teeth, namely twenty-four grinders, four eye-teeth, and twelve incisive. Sheds coat in the spring; in marshy countries, sheds hoofs, too. Hoofs hard, but requiring to be shod with iron. Age known by marks in mouth."

 

[danny la rouge]

Class.

This is a major topic as well as a derail. I’m busy right now, but I do think it deserves a thread people can find, and that would have the advantage that this thread can concentrate on news/views on Brexit.

If someone wants to start a new thread that’d be great. Maybe quote posts from here to inform the conversation.

Sorry I can’t be more involved RN. Life is getting in the way.

 

[teuchter]

Flying visit. But quick thought. You are like an atomic physicist who wants to know about valency but is stuck on defining one particular particle rather than its relationship with others.

I'm perfectly comfortable with trying to understand it as a relationship rather than intrinsic/static quality of a person.

This discussion kind of started off when I said that I have never found a definitive way of establishing and agreeing whether any one person can be described as 'working class'.

I don't see that these things are incompatible.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm perfectly comfortable with trying to understand it as a relationship rather than intrinsic/static quality of a person.

This discussion kind of started off when I said that I have never found a definitive way of establishing and agreeing whether any one person can be described as 'working class'.

I don't see that these things are incompatible.

perhaps you could outline where you have looked and then we can concentrate attention on those as yet unsearched locations where such a thing may be.

 

[teuchter]

perhaps you could outline where you have looked and then we can concentrate attention on those as yet unsearched locations where such a thing may be.

Your desire to exclude previously searched locations implies that you yourself have yet to find the location.

 

[andysays]

Perhaps it would be useful for people to replace the term "working class" with "currently working class".

It's almost like you're on a one man mission to confuse things by exaggerating the amount of disagreement or misunderstanding around this, for some reason of your own...

 

[Pickman's model]

Your desire to exclude previously searched locations implies that you yourself have yet to find the location.

 

[andysays]

Flying visit. But quick thought. You are like an atomic physicist who wants to know about valency but is stuck on defining one particular particle rather than its relationship with others.

Ah, but is the particle moving or at rest?

If its moving is is close to the speed of light?

Is it in a vacuum or might it be affected by other particles, or forces such as gravity or magnetism?

Etc, etc, etc...

 

[Wilf]

Ah, but is the particle moving or at rest?

If its moving is is close to the speed of light?

Is it in a vacuum or might it be affected by other particles, or forces such as gravity or magnetism?

Etc, etc, etc...

Schrodinger's Brexit.

 

[brogdale]

Perhaps it would be useful for people to replace the term "working class" with "currently working class".

No, not really.

If someone is working class they share common economic interests, are conscious of those interests, and engage in collective action which advances those interests.

If they don't, they're not.

 

[andysays]

Schrodinger's Brexit.

In line with the current diversion, I was thinking more of Schrodinger's working class, but that works too

 

[Pickman's model]

In line with the current diversion, I was thinking more of Schrodinger's working class, but that works too

schrodinger's teuchter - schrodinger got so fed up he locked teuchter in a lead box: but is teuchter still incarcerated in there?

 

[teuchter]

No, not really.

If someone is working class they share common economic interests, are conscious of those interests, and engage in collective action which advances those interests.

If they don't, they're not.

What would be the problem with replacing 'working class' with 'currently working class' in your statement above?

 

[JuanTwoThree]

No, not really.

If someone is working class they share common economic interests, are conscious of those interests, and engage in collective action which advances those interests.

If they don't, they're not.

Does that make 'working-class Tory' contradictory?

 

[Cid]

Yeah brogdale’s definition seems weird. But class thread would be good...

Aaanyway this thread needs more looking into the goldfish bowl. Did we have latest voting intention?

Con: 32
Lab: 22
LD: 20
Brexit: 12

Yougov, 24th Aug. Can’t be arsed linking, on phone.

 

[brogdale]

What would be the problem with replacing 'working class' with 'currently working class' in your statement above?

Because it's superfluous.

 

[Pickman's model]

Does that make 'working-class Tory' contradictory?

all tories are contradict-tory

 

[brogdale]

So...back OT...

Corbyn has met with the other non-Tory leaders and agreed to use legislation (rather than a VoNC) to prevent a 'No-Deal' exit.
I'm presuming also legislation to prevent proroguing etc.

VoNC saved for October as last ditch?

 

[Flavour]

Even if a theortical VoNC were to succeed in ousting BJ in October, would there be enough time for whoever replaced him to stop No Deal? would there be a GE? seems highly unlikely that an october VoNC could stop No Deal

 

[brogdale]

Even if a theortical VoNC were to succeed in ousting BJ in October, would there be enough time for whoever replaced him to stop No Deal? would there be a GE? seems highly unlikely that an october VoNC could stop No Deal

Theoretically possible under terms of FTPA. If, within 14 days of the VoNC, a new administration could command the support of a majority of MPs, the new executive could revoke A50 or ask for an re-extension or whatever. So, I suppose Oct 16th is about the latest they could try it?

 

[Flavour]

i think they'd probably want to start calling a VoNC as soon as there's any official confirmation of BJ intention to begin proceedings to prorogue parliament

 

[brogdale]

i think they'd probably want to start calling a VoNC as soon as there's any official confirmation of BJ intention to begin proceedings to prorogue parliament

Well yes, but that's a different matter again.