Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[kabbes]

Class is a relationship defined by economic role in society. It’s not about thresholds, but social relations.

Indeed, and you can see the evidence for this in some of what is misunderstood about wealth. Somebody with two million in debt who owns a million pound house and a business that is now turning over 500,000 a year but little other tangible assets technically has negative net wealth (without wishing to start micro-defining the profit levels of the business and its valuation). They are clearly not worse off than an unemployed individual that has no tangible assets and a £500 overdraft, however.

 

[danny la rouge]

Indeed, and you can see the evidence for this in some of what is misunderstood about wealth. Somebody with two million in debt who owns a million pound house and a business that is now turning over 500,000 a year but little other tangible assets technically has negative net wealth (without wishing to start micro-defining the profit levels of the business and its valuation). They are clearly not worse off than an unemployed individual that has no tangible assets and a £500 overdraft, however.

Worth remembering too that the debt is unlikely to be personal if it’s for business purposes: the liability will be in the name of a company entity.

The point to focus on, though, is that class is a dynamic. It’s a relationship.

 

[Pickman's model]

Worth remembering too that the debt is unlikely to be personal if it’s for business purposes: the liability will be in the name of a company entity.

The point to focus on, though, is that class is a dynamic. It’s a relationship.

Yeh like ep Thompson said it's very hard to see if looked at a a moment, just as you can't examine a song if you stop the record playing

 

[Gaia]

The EU had suggested a border down the Irish sea as one possibility for the future, and it accepted the UK suggestion of the (badly named in my view) backstop as another suggestion for the future relationship.
Maybe you don't think of those as 'any details'.

If Theresa May messed up that's her look out, but I was warming to her brexit in name only idea as maybe the best of a bad job in this whole miserable situation.

No, the EU did NOT suggest a border in the Irish Sea. May said what the EU was proposing was "tantamount to there being a border in the Irish Sea", at no point has that idea ever been mooted by the EU. brexit-and-the-irish-border-question-explained

The EU know better than to suggest a border in the Irish Sea because that solves precisely fuck all. If Northern Ireland is still part of the UK, then the GFA must be honoured and the GFA states that there will never be a hard border on the island of Ireland. It would stir everything up again - Derry/Londonderry is smack-bang where a hard border would be and it saw the worst of the fighting during the Troubles for that very reason - and that not withstanding, many who live in (London)Derry work in the Republic, having to queue at a border checkpoint and have their passport on them at all times is, I'm sure a hassle nobody would willing agree to.

Finally, the DUP. It wants to leave and, obviously, it is anti a united Ireland. How do you propose that circle is squared…?

 

[Gaia]

It’s not a bank holiday here. Our August bank holiday is at the start of the month. Our schools are not long back, so a holiday now would be a bit weird.

Oh I didn't realise you were one of them… this always confuses me. Your schools break up earlier too, don't they…? A week or so…?

 

[Gaia]

Hi Anju . How are you?

I disagree with pretty much every sentence in the above post. It’s quicker for me just to say that than tackle each point.

That’s fine, though. I’m used to being out of step with the majority on this.

Are you off work today? I start later this afternoon. Just about to make a potato omelette. We’ll have half tomorrow, when it’ll be tastier.

I do have to say I'm with, Danny here, Anju, that really is a load of unmitigated bollocks.

 

[danny la rouge]

Oh I didn't realise you were one of them… this always confuses me. Your schools break up earlier too, don't they…? A week or so…?

Two usually. As a kid it always used to annoy the hell out of me that the summer holiday children’s TV didn’t start until the English children went on holiday.

 

[Gaia]

i'm edging towards agreeing with cupid_stunt - perhaps BJ is playing this well. obviously he's banking on *any* tiny change to the backstop looking like a huge victory which will get a "deal" through, and Macron has already suggested such a change is not impossible. the threat of no deal has indeed put the shits up the EU a little bit but as we all know, and as they all know, BJ obviously playing with a potentially large fire.

is brexit going to happen? gonna have to disagree with the long-standing view of many, including Pickman's model on this - i think we will be out on Nov 1st. Unless, unless: the MPs actually do have the capacity to block it. not sure what that would mean though, if they did. BJ can just refuse to ask for another extension even if the MPs order it.

I like CS, I'm just worried I'll find out he's on the t'other side, which means I'll have to start hating him…

 

[JuanTwoThree]

Could the six counties and Gib and perhaps the Channel Islands be in the UK but with some kind of zona franca status?

 

[Gaia]

Class is a relationship defined by economic role in society. It’s not about thresholds, but social relations.

That said, majority of those who consider themselves upper class, in all honesty, have no class. I'm not really one for talking about class as some kind of Victorian construct, which is kinda what you're alluding to, isn't it Dan…? Frankly, I think it far more helpful to talk in terms of skills, because being a structural engineer is far more skilled than being a middle manager or a CEO. Perhaps it's the background I come from, but I abhor the idea of class, in the way you're talking about it, it's TWTWTW 'class' sketch, and I, probably fancifully, thought we were past that.

 

[Gaia]

Indeed, and you can see the evidence for this in some of what is misunderstood about wealth. Somebody with two million in debt who owns a million pound house and a business that is now turning over 500,000 a year but little other tangible assets technically has negative net wealth (without wishing to start micro-defining the profit levels of the business and its valuation). They are clearly not worse off than an unemployed individual that has no tangible assets and a £500 overdraft, however.

So, danny la rouge, I can't work, I'm almost completely skint, I guess according to you I have no class…? Well, that ain't telling me summat I didn't already know, boyo.

 

[danny la rouge]

but I abhor the idea of class,

I don’t approve of its existence, and wish to bring about its end. But it exists. There’s a difference between analysing what’s there and approving of what’s there.

 

[danny la rouge]

So, danny la rouge, I can't work, I'm almost completely skint, I guess according to you I have no class…? Well, that ain't telling me summat I didn't already know, boyo.

No, everyone has a relationship with the mode of production.

You’re using the word class in one of its other senses.

 

[Gaia]

I don’t approve of its existence, and wish to bring about its end. But it exists. There’s a difference between analysing what’s there and approving of what’s there.

Yes, of course, I didn't mean to imply you did, sorry if I came over like that. I am, unfortunately, from a very upper-middle-class background (at least on my father's side) and it's summat I wish to distance myself from.

 

[Gaia]

No, everyone has a relationship with the mode of production.

You’re using the word class in one of its other senses.

Yes, Daniel, it's what's known as 'a pun', well spotted! (and no sarcasm meant). Please be aware I have limited communication skills, I'd not like us to fall out.

 

[Pickman's model]

Could the six counties and Gib and perhaps the Channel Islands be in the UK but with some kind of zona franca status?

Be very good for zona franca who never prospered after falling out with ruddy yurts

 

[danny la rouge]

, I'd not like us to fall out.

We’re not falling out, we’re having a discussion.

 

[JuanTwoThree]

Be very good for zona franca who never prospered after falling out with ruddy yurts

Maybe it was the Tibetan flute that didn't just get up her nose.

 

[Pickman's model]

Maybe it was the Tibetan flute that didn't just get up her nose.

His nose. Zona short for zonadiel

 

[JuanTwoThree]

His nose. Zona short for zonadiel

I did not know that. You're never too old to learn something new.

 

[philosophical]

No, the EU did NOT suggest a border in the Irish Sea. May said what the EU was proposing was "tantamount to there being a border in the Irish Sea", at no point has that idea ever been mooted by the EU. brexit-and-the-irish-border-question-explained

The EU know better than to suggest a border in the Irish Sea because that solves precisely fuck all. If Northern Ireland is still part of the UK, then the GFA must be honoured and the GFA states that there will never be a hard border on the island of Ireland. It would stir everything up again - Derry/Londonderry is smack-bang where a hard border would be and it saw the worst of the fighting during the Troubles for that very reason - and that not withstanding, many who live in (London)Derry work in the Republic, having to queue at a border checkpoint and have their passport on them at all times is, I'm sure a hassle nobody would willing agree to.

Finally, the DUP. It wants to leave and, obviously, it is anti a united Ireland. How do you propose that circle is squared…?

Tantamount is how May technically correctly described one of the EU suggestions. I think it may have been mooted because of the difficulties of physical geography as much as anything else, but also mooted in the context of after leave there will be two divergent systems of regulation to deal with. Anyway May suggested the backstop idea as a way out of the dilemma, which is effectively kicking the can as far down the road as she could think of. Delay was one of May's strategies after all.
I think the way to square the circle is to not try to, leave things be and abandon brexit. However for those on the side of brexit and think they can solve the GFA/border situation it is up to them to come up with a workable solution that will survive scrutiny and practical reality. What LeFT are suggesting is unworkable in my view because there is no suggestion for dealing with transgressions, probably because they know enforcement will very likely undermine the peace process.

 

[brogdale]

Portentous?

 

[andysays]

I think the way to square the circle is to not try to, leave things be and abandon brexit...

Not so much squaring the circle as turning it into a nice pointy triangle

 

[teuchter]

Class is a relationship defined by economic role in society. It’s not about thresholds, but social relations.

By this do you mean that it's always a relative rather than absolute thing?

 

[Flavour]

is there really any need for this extremely boring nit-picking over definitions of class on a thread about whether or not Brexit will happen and in what form?

 

[teuchter]

I can’t think of a reason why this wouldn’t be true. Approach it from the other end — could someone receiving a billion a year ever be working class? If not, that proves there is such a level and we are just at the point of deciding where it is.

I reckon though that there's going to be a large 'grey area' where no-one can agree, which is what I meant earlier when I said that there's no definitive way of establishing one way or the other whether anyone is 'working class'.

For example, if someone earns well enough that in middle age they can buy a second property, rent it out and receive sufficient income from it that they can give up working altogether - then clearly they are not working class. What about someone who does the same but it just supplements their income - to the extent that they can live more comfortably, but not enough that they can live off the rental income alone? Are they still working class?

 

[binka]

is there really any need for this extremely boring nit-picking

Is this your first time on U75 etc

 

[danny la rouge]

By this do you mean that it's always a relative rather than absolute thing?

I mean class analysis is a study of interactions. Class is a dynamic. To describe someone as working class is to describe them as having a particular relationship within the mode of production. It’s about the relationship not some static property of individuals.

 

[gosub]

I reckon though that there's going to be a large 'grey area' where no-one can agree, which is what I meant earlier when I said that there's no definitive way of establishing one way or the other whether anyone is 'working class'.

For example, if someone earns well enough that in middle age they can buy a second property, rent it out and receive sufficient income from it that they can give up working altogether - then clearly they are not working class. What about someone who does the same but it just supplements their income - to the extent that they can live more comfortably, but not enough that they can live off the rental income alone? Are they still working class?

What about if they were married, but separated? Say one partner gets the house...the other one if they want to get back on the housing ladder, unless they divorce, it will be regarded as a second home for stamp duty purposes...whilst the married person tax benefits are woeful

 

[danny la rouge]

is there really any need for this extremely boring nit-picking over definitions of class on a thread about whether or not Brexit will happen and in what form?

Over the years this has been done again and again, but people still don’t understand what is meant by a Marxian class analysis. I’ve been here two decades and general comprehension of what people coming from my political standpoint mean by class seems to have got worse.

I know it has different meanings to different people, but people still seem to think they’ve spotted something Marx missed, but without taking the trouble to actually read Marx.