Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[philosophical]

So you align with the IoD, CBI, Blair, Cameron, Clegg, Swinson, the Blairite rump in Labour, the IMF, the ECB etc? I ask to check if you are merely ridiculous and pathetic or politically abysmal as well. Either way, the fleas on you and your remain allies, that emanate from your disgusting politics include closed EU borders killing migrants in the sea, the punishment beating of ordinary Greeks and Italians, the 40% youth unemployment in Spain and Portugal and the far right groups you’ve given agency to. They are fucking vile fleas you’ve got. You citing the risible David Lanny about sums you up

On your border transgressions. There are border transgressions in every country, on every day of the week. The idea that border transgressions will bring down the GFA or the south of Ireland is frankly insane.

A temporary solution to the border in Ireland will have to be found. The options exist and have been set out in a paper that you continue to refuse to read. What hasn’t happened yet is serious negotiations about them for posturing reasons in Dublin and Brussels and Westminster. Your continued insistence that the people of Ireland hang on every word on this matter is just shite.

OK you say I align myself to that stuff, i am not prepared to argue with you. You align yourself to the self serving racist brexiters.
I know where I would rather be. You call my politics disgusting and make links, so in the same spirit I tell you that you are in favour of forcibly repatriating people of the Windrush generation to die alone in a land strange to them.
I cited something David Lammy says in order not to be accused of some kind of plagiarism, and I can easily say that you citing the work of Nicky Morgan about sums you up too.
If you are unable to tell that my shtick is a focus on the impact of brexit on the land border in Ireland then more fool you.
I have not refused to read your quoted paper, indeed I have responded and repeatedly asked if you have any idea what your temporary or permanent solution in Ireland (you know, the one you say will 'have to be found') could possibly be, because it is not there in the alternative arrangements document, nor in the evidence given by the Swedish Customs expert that the LeFT website said would be the place to find the answers.
You are another person who resorts to the personal when frustrated by your own seeming inability to answer a question, indeed the fact you bounce the answer on to a document or a parliamentary hearing suggests you never will be able to answer such a question.

 

[philosophical]

your question is asking support or confirmation in your belief that everyone who voted brexit is racist. You therefore believe everyone who voted brexit is racist. It's admittedly not coming out and saying you're all racist but your intended meaning hides behind a tawdry figleaf

Admittedly.
LOL.
Exhibit whatever.

 

[Anju]

I hope it isn't too embarrassing for you that I write in agreement.
My mixed race son commutes to London Bridge every day for work (he does other stuff too!), and he reported a definite increase in racist abuse towards him immediately after the vote, as well as feeling he had to intervene when racist abuse was directed at others. Since then there has not been a return to the point of the low level racist abuse he was used to, but general unembarrassed abuse has sustained itself at quite a high level for the past three years.
The far right has always been around, but brexit and the Stephen Yackitty Lookatme stuff along with other things had contaminated the life of a family member of mine in an increased way since the referendum.

It's fine

I find the apparent lack of empathy and denial of the nasty racist stuff frustrating. There's a lot of angry denial and lack of solidarity with non English people on display here. I don't think pe

I know a lot of people who have been affected by the racism of leave. My niece was abused by a few guys on a train in Lewisham. They started making monkey noises. She was with her daughter who has tourettes and was so upset she left London and moved to Cheshire, realised she'd made a rash decision and spent a year trying to arrange a house swap to get back to us. My brother in law lost his job, is mid 50s with 5 kids, 3 still at home, loads of debt. He's struggling to keep his head above water. Still it's hurting the Tories.

ETA, this was the day after the referendum result.v

 

[philosophical]

It's fine

I find the apparent lack of empathy and denial of the nasty racist stuff frustrating. There's a lot of angry denial and lack of solidarity with non English people on display here. I don't think pe

I know a lot of people who have been affected by the racism of leave. My niece was abused by a few guys on a train in Lewisham. They started making monkey noises. She was with her daughter who has tourettes and was so upset she left London and moved to Cheshire, realised she'd made a rash decision and spent a year trying to arrange a house swap to get back to us. My brother in law lost his job, is mid 50s with 5 kids, 3 still at home, loads of debt. He's struggling to keep his head above water. Still it's hurting the Tories.

Indeed. Lewisham is where I live. And my son was born in Lewisham hospital.
I am sorry to hear of the actual things you and yours have encountered, they may be theoretical risks to some, but to some of us the nasty stuff is up close and personal and real.

 

[Anju]

If you read the thread you will see that LeFT hasn’t just been set up for the period between now and October/November. The explicit aim is to look longer than that because the fall out will reverberate for years (as will ongoing discussion about the nature of EU neo-liberalism).

Finally, it’s deeply offensive to lump all BAME voters into one category. There were significant differences by class, education, location and millions voted leave.

First, it's not offensive to use the actual figures to dispute that LeFT represent BAME people but it is offensive to use the some of my friends are black defence.

I know LeFT is not just about the time leading up to the end of October. That's why I mentioned that the Tories are in election mode and posted a link to an article showing how serious they are. You don't have time to make any impact before the election, assuming it happens, and then it's 5 years of damage to ordinary people's lives. The LeFT campaign, as it is now, doesn't seem slick enough to survive that time.

Also, have LeFT tested the statements by showing them to ordinary people? I agree with a lot of the things people post here but often the language is off-putting or I don't immediately recognise what's being said. The statements read like they're written for other people who are into politics, which most people aren't.

 

[Anju]

Yeah I know what you were saying. A section of left backed something which caused sterling to fall, ergo they acted against the working class. Which as we've established is not a consistent or honest position

It is what happened though. It's the left saying we're so ineffective that we'll vote with the right and then hope things go our way later.

 

[redsquirrel]

Three years and this is all there is from the left side of Brexit?

It is one example not the sum total of stuff. There's this also for example. And part of the reason why there has not been more is because of you and your fellow travellers attacks on these attempts to build left-wing anti-EU politics.

(Of course the above still persists in the focus on 'the left' rather than concentrating on the real actor the working class)

 

[Proper Tidy]

It is what happened though. It's the left saying we're so ineffective that we'll vote with the right and then hope things go our way later.

So we've completed the circle and you are actually saying that how capital reacts to something is a guide to what the left's stance should be. So no nationalisations because equity markets would fall and we'd see capital flight and that would affect working class people's pensions. No mass state housebuilding because that would cause house prices to fall, at expense of mid/later life working class people who were relying on their homes to fund their retirement. Because this is what you're saying.

 

[Anju]

It is one example not the sum total of stuff. There's this also for example. And part of the reason why there has not been more is because of you and your fellow travellers attacks on these attempts to build left-wing anti-EU politics.

(Of course the above still persists in the focus on 'the left' rather than concentrating on the real actor the working class)

I don't think it's me or any other remain voter holding back left leave, it's the Labour party fence grabbing. They're the people with the organisation, numbers and media access. Maybe there would be a viable left leave option if they had spent the time building support for it, or if as you and others think there is a left leave group out there they would simply have had to give them a platform.

60% of people in the UK identify as working class so not sure there's a single view available there.

 

[Anju]

So we've completed the circle and you are actually saying that how capital reacts to something is a guide to what the left's stance should be. So no nationalisations because equity markets would fall and we'd see capital flight and that would affect working class people's pensions. No mass state housebuilding because that would cause house prices to fall, at expense of mid/later life working class people who were relying on their homes to fund their retirement. Because this is what you're saying.

What I'm saying is that the left need to be more confident and put out policies for people to look at and judge for themselves.

I just don't think leaving the EU has to be a prerequisite to achieving what the left want.

You either circumvent or just ignore any rules that would stand in the way. Our railways are almost entirely state owned, just not by us. Same with workers rights. Deliveroo are gradually pulling out of Germany because of their labour laws.

Worst case scenario we get thrown out.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

OK you say I align myself to that stuff, i am not prepared to argue with you. You align yourself to the self serving racist brexiters.
I know where I would rather be. You call my politics disgusting and make links, so in the same spirit I tell you that you are in favour of forcibly repatriating people of the Windrush generation to die alone in a land strange to them.
I cited something David Lammy says in order not to be accused of some kind of plagiarism, and I can easily say that you citing the work of Nicky Morgan about sums you up too.
If you are unable to tell that my shtick is a focus on the impact of brexit on the land border in Ireland then more fool you.
I have not refused to read your quoted paper, indeed I have responded and repeatedly asked if you have any idea what your temporary or permanent solution in Ireland (you know, the one you say will 'have to be found') could possibly be, because it is not there in the alternative arrangements document, nor in the evidence given by the Swedish Customs expert that the LeFT website said would be the place to find the answers.
You are another person who resorts to the personal when frustrated by your own seeming inability to answer a question, indeed the fact you bounce the answer on to a document or a parliamentary hearing suggests you never will be able to answer such a question.

It’s embarrassing stuff this. Some of us have spent significant parts of our lives actively fighting fascists and racists, standing up on the pavement and the shop floor. So fuck you, you pathetic shit.

The idea that support for the racist EU and ‘Fortress Europe’ is some signifier of your anti fascist bonafides is frankly laughable.

Similarly, the idea that people can hold the same view as you on one issue and you can violently oppose them a) on everything else and b) even disagree with their motives and reasons for their position on that one issue where you agree doesn’t seem to have entered your empty head.

Lastly, I don’t know who you are or your track record but there will be no more replies from me to you on the basis of your post.

 

[Anju]

No mass state housebuilding because that would cause house prices to fall.

Actually I would make all new build developments 50% social housing, provided to government at cost and buy every empty property in the country to use as social housing.

I'm lucky enough to live in social housing and it's the only thing that makes life bearable financially.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

First, it's not offensive to use the actual figures to dispute that LeFT represent BAME people but it is offensive to use the some of my friends are black defence.

I know LeFT is not just about the time leading up to the end of October. That's why I mentioned that the Tories are in election mode and posted a link to an article showing how serious they are. You don't have time to make any impact before the election, assuming it happens, and then it's 5 years of damage to ordinary people's lives. The LeFT campaign, as it is now, doesn't seem slick enough to survive that time.

Also, have LeFT tested the statements by showing them to ordinary people? I agree with a lot of the things people post here but often the language is off-putting or I don't immediately recognise what's being said. The statements read like they're written for other people who are into politics, which most people aren't.

1. paragraph one doesn’t make any sense. You have suggested that LeFT is excluding. I’ve shown you it isn’t. I’ve also directed to towards research that suggests your attempt to paint the entire BAME community as uniform on Brexit is a reductive position.

2. A more pressing problem in the forthcoming GE is that the opposition to the tories will be exclusively fighting for the middle class liberals who demand the result be overturned. There are not enough of them to win an election. Labour’s position is therefore critical and will be engaged with

3. The initial material is aimed at those on the left who are politically active. Other material is and will be produced to be used in different circumstances. I’ve shared the initial material in my branch and union region where it’s been well received (except by remain supporters who, strangely, have attempted to dismiss it rather than engage with it).

 

[philosophical]

It’s embarrassing stuff this. Some of us have spent significant parts of our lives actively fighting fascists and racists, standing up on the pavement and the shop floor. So fuck you, you pathetic shit.

The idea that support for the racist EU and ‘Fortress Europe’ is some signifier of your anti fascist bonafides is frankly laughable.

Similarly, the idea that people can hold the same view as you on one issue and you can violently oppose them a) on everything else and b) even disagree with their motives and reasons for their position on that one issue where you agree doesn’t seem to have entered your empty head.

Lastly, I don’t know who you are or your track record but there will be no more replies from me to you on the basis of your post.

Good.
As you say you know nothing of me or my track record.
So in the spirit of solidarity I say fuck you too you pathetic shit.

 

[Anju]

1. paragraph one doesn’t make any sense. You have suggested that LeFT is excluding. I’ve shown you it isn’t. I’ve also directed to towards research that suggests your attempt to paint the entire BAME community as uniform on Brexit is a reductive position.

2. A more pressing problem in the forthcoming GE is that the opposition to the tories will be exclusively fighting for the middle class liberals who demand the result be overturned. There are not enough of them to win an election. Labour’s position is therefore critical and will be engaged with

3. The initial material is aimed at those on the left who are politically active. Other material is and will be produced to be used in different circumstances. I’ve shared the initial material in my branch and union region where it’s been well received (except by remain supporters who, strangely, have attempted to dismiss it rather than engage with it).

OK.
1. I'm not saying anyone is being excluded. My initial post, which included NI was pointing out that you can't claim to represent those people as they favour remain. 55% in NI and 75% of BAME voters. Having representatives from those communities in LeFT does not mean you represent them. I haven't painted the BAME community as anything, just given the figures.

2. It's not accurate to look at things as remain = liberal and leave = working class. I think it's too late for labour. I have no idea what will happen to labour when the time comes but right now it doesn't feel like they are ready, willing or able to win an election.

3. Best to test things outside your normal group if you don't want to end up like one of those singers on X factor who's family have told them they're great. I'm not saying the stuff you posted is badly written or incoherent just that it could put a lot of people off trying to engage.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Actually I would make all new build developments 50% social housing, provided to government at cost and buy every empty property in the country to use as social housing.

I'm lucky enough to live in social housing and it's the only thing that makes life bearable financially.

The second idea of yours, state buying up existing homes, is good, i'd like to see legislation which gives state (central or local) first refusal on every property put to market, alongside some pretty heavy restrictions on buy to let. But anyway. My point is that sterling diving isn't a stick to beat left leavers with

 

[Smokeandsteam]

3. Best to test things outside your normal group if you don't want to end up like one of those singers on X factor who's family have told them they're great. I'm not saying the stuff you posted is badly written or incoherent just that it could put a lot of people off trying to engage.

Thanks for the advice. We’ll give it the consideration is deserves

 

[Anju]

The second idea of yours, state buying up existing homes, is good, i'd like to see legislation which gives state (central or local) first refusal on every property put to market, alongside some pretty heavy restrictions on buy to let. But anyway. My point is that sterling diving isn't a stick to beat left leavers with

Point taken. I still find the whole left leave thing difficult as my experience of Brexit has already been pretty negative and I'm instinctively hostile to anything that hurts the people I love. Plus, like a lot of people I didn't know there was a left leave position and I think maybe those on the left need to be more aware that there are people who didn't and indeed still don't know this. I'd never voted before the referendum but I know lifelong labour voters who didn't know there was a left leave argument.

Nice to have a semi civil discussion but I am off to drink and smoke in the sun.

 

[Anju]

Thanks for the advice. We’ll give it the consideration is deserves

Whatever, guess we'll have to wait and see who's right, as in correct not wing.

It is good advice though.

 

[redsquirrel]

I don't think it's me or any other remain voter holding back left leave, it's the Labour party fence grabbing. They're the people with the organisation, numbers and media access. Maybe there would be a viable left leave option if they had spent the time building support for it, or if as you and others think there is a left leave group out there they would simply have had to give them a platform.

60% of people in the UK identify as working class so not sure there's a single view available there.

You went around calling anyone who voted leave a racist, you defended the EUs murderous attack on Greece, you are pushing for the hardest remain position their is, don't pretend that your politics is not based on shutting down any pro-working class options (remain or leave).

The last sentence is twaddle. As BA said total time-waster

 

[Dogsauce]

No discussion here about what Trump's game is in promoting division in Europe/Brexit and offering a carrot to the UK for playing along? Just thought it might be something to consider.

To me it looks a bit like Trump (or at least those pulling his strings) want the EU to collapse, as it's a larger rival trading block that promotes a more 'managed' flavour of capitalism than the US model, with consumer standards, environmental protection (although some is just straight protectionism with added greenwash) and is starting to step on the toes of large tax-dodging corporations, including a lot of big US digital firms (Amazon ,Facebook, Google etc. - ever wonder why they're not putting up much of a fight against data misuse by populist campaigns etc?). It's pretty plain that the EU is seen as a barrier to business/trade by some on the other side of the pond and they'd like it out of the way.

Are the tories aware they are being used as a wedge to prize apart the European Union, and how this will then allow for greater US dominance, or is this kind of what a lot of them want? Separate nations are unlikely to be able to stand up to global corporations with the same strength as a large block of nations (accepting in a lot of areas this organisation has already been captured by corporations, but they're maybe not the right ones?).

 

[krtek a houby]

It's kind of ironic that out of all the divisions and disunity, a united Ireland will emerge.

 

[Humberto]

I'm wondering what the likely effects will be on London. Large numbers of immigrants, seems to be a hub of globalisation. From reading these boards it's a place where gentrification, inequality and 'unwanted' communities (working class/council estates) are squeezed out and exploited. Will this shit be accelerated or pegged back in the longer term? Bit vague and waffley like.

 

[krtek a houby]

I'm wondering what the likely effects will be on London. Large numbers of immigrants, seems to be a hub of globalisation. From reading these boards it's a place where gentrification, inequality and 'unwanted' communities (working class/council estates) are squeezed out and exploited. Will this shit be accelerated or pegged back in the longer term? Bit vague and waffley like.

I'm guessing, whatever the outcome, the working class and the marginalised - will continue to be shafted.

 

[MickiQ]

I'm guessing, whatever the outcome, the working class and the marginalised - will continue to be shafted.

Post Brexit rich people Group A will lose money and rich people Group B will make money.
Some not-rich people will get some benefit (especially if there is a drop in house prices) however most of us will get screwed over.
The harder the Brexit on a scale of No Deal to Norway then the larger Group A will be and the more money they will lose and the worse the proles will get it.

 

[TheHoodedClaw]

Huh, that's interesting - just had a call from the Returning Officer asking if the council can reserve my workplace on 31/10, 7/11 and 14/11. My work gets used as a polling station...

 

[danny la rouge]

Huh, that's interesting - just had a call from the Returning Officer asking if the council can reserve my workplace on 31/10, 7/11 and 14/11. My work gets used as a polling station...

All Thursdays too.

I'm off to the bookies...

 

[cupid_stunt]

Huh, that's interesting - just had a call from the Returning Officer asking if the council can reserve my workplace on 31/10, 7/11 and 14/11. My work gets used as a polling station...

Blimey, the Returning Officer is working on a bank holiday.

 

[Proper Tidy]

All Thursdays too.

I'm off to the bookies...

Bookies onto it. Just checked odds, 11-5 for a GE in 2019. Although should be able to get better odds for specific dates

 

[danny la rouge]

Blimey, the Returning Officer is working on a bank holiday.

It’s not a bank holiday here. Our August bank holiday is at the start of the month. Our schools are not long back, so a holiday now would be a bit weird.