Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[Anju]

So after pouring scorn on a group for outlining an analysis and seeking to organise around it this drivel is your alternative. Nothing about why this should happen, how to deal with the fallout, what this would say about representative democracy, just do what i want.

Beyond pathetic.

How is it any different to other solutions. They're all "do what I want"

Much as your obsession with groups, sub groups and who's who within those groups I at least thought you were honest in your posts. Do you think LeFT will achieve anything?

 

[Anju]

There is no better way to boost farage and his ilk

I think a Tory Boris Johnson led Brexit will have a similar impact. Look at the spike in hate crime around the referendum. It's not like people thought oh we've won let's chill out.

 

[butchersapron]

How is it any different to other solutions. They're all "do what I want"

Much as your obsession with groups, sub groups and who's who within those groups I at least thought you were honest in your posts. Do you think LeFT will achieve anything?

Other groups, sub groups or whatever you're fussed about, offer an analysis. Some substance. Some politics. Something which your immediate and effective alternative is sadly void of. Pair of time-wasters.

 

[Anju]

Other groups, sub groups or whatever you're fussed about, offer an analysis. Some substance. Some politics. Something which your immediate and effective alternative is sadly void of. Pair of time-wasters.

Do you think LeFT will have any impact. It's a simple question.

 

[brogdale]

Do you think LeFT will have any impact. It's a simple question.

The fact that you're engaged with that question kind of shows that they already have.

 

[butchersapron]

Do you think LeFT will have any impact. It's a simple question.

More impact than calling people racist misogynists will, 100%.

 

[Proper Tidy]

My parents live in Spain on a state pension, as do other people. The value of their pension has fallen enough to cause them financial distress. I'm not in a position to help them. That causes me distress.

Yeah not disputing currency changes have effects. I'm disputing it has any role to play in defining pro working class politics. How do you think sterling or equity markets would react to nationalisations or mass planned social spending and does this make such actions pro or anti working class. Fucks sake

 

[Pickman's model]

I think a Tory Boris Johnson led Brexit will have a similar impact. Look at the spike in hate crime around the referendum. It's not like people thought oh we've won let's chill out.

no indeed. I think i commented on it at the time. But your solution won't happen immediately, there's a number of steps to occur before that could happen.

Perhaps you missed my post about problems with data transfers following a no deal brexit. And maybe you've missed the noises from the US Congress about how no trade deal will be made with the UK is brexit impacts the gfa. But the long and short of it is I don't believe we will leave the eu, not because of a lack of desire but because it's essentially impossible to leave the eu given the policy choices that have been made.

 

[Anju]

The fact that you're engaged with that question kind of shows that they already have.

On Urban maybe.

 

[Anju]

More impact than calling people racist misogynists will, 100%.

Ok if you don't want to give a meaningful answer fair enough.

 

[brogdale]

On Urban maybe.

I don't necessarily agree with LeFT's emphasis on backing a 'No-Deal' type of exit, but I don't see why such a well-argued campaign shouldn't have an impact on the wider Labour movement; especially as we approach the Brighton conference.

 

[Anju]

Yeah not disputing currency changes have effects. I'm disputing it has any role to play in defining pro working class politics. How do you think sterling or equity markets would react to nationalisations or mass planned social spending and does this make such actions pro or anti working class. Fucks sake

Of course nationalisation and social spending are pro working class. I would assume the markets would react negatively but I wouldn't be concerned about that. Constant updates on the stock market should be banned.

 

[andysays]

Amongst others there are
Dotted point six in section one of the Rights, safeguards and equality of opportunity section.
Point 1 in section two of the economic social and cultural issues section.
Point one under security.
Article one section two (the external impediment bit).

You are welcome to do your own research.
Maybe you are the poster that can explain how the alternative arrangements can deal with all transgressions with regard to the Geography, topography and practicalities of the suggestions in the 'alternative arrangements'. Perhaps you can point out the specific part of the alternative arrangements proposals text that addresses transgressions.
If you are a lexiter or are part of LeFT go ahead and impose those alternative arrangements if you like, they will not work in my view and you won't have your brexit.
Lexiters and LeFT are axiomatically allied to the likes of Johnson, Farage and Priti (let the threat of food shortages pressure the Irish) Patel. Carry on, although you might wish to tell Priti Patel that the Republic of Ireland is one of the most food secure countries of the world.

So again, you're unable to provide a genuine answer to a specific question.

 

[Anju]

no indeed. I think i commented on it at the time. But your solution won't happen immediately, there's a number of steps to occur before that could happen.

Perhaps you missed my post about problems with data transfers following a no deal brexit. And maybe you've missed the noises from the US Congress about how no trade deal will be made with the UK is brexit impacts the gfa. But the long and short of it is I don't believe we will leave the eu, not because of a lack of desire but because it's essentially impossible to leave the eu given the policy choices that have been made.

I saw your posts and know that you have believed Brexit won't happen since the referendum.

like every other solution revoking article 50 is neither guaranteed or simple, just my preferred option.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Of course nationalisation and social spending are pro working class. I would assume the markets would react negatively but I wouldn't be concerned about that. Constant updates on the stock market should be banned.

So why is sterling movement an indication of what the left should be doing in this instance then

 

[Anju]

I don't necessarily agree with LeFT's emphasis on backing a 'No-Deal' type of exit, but I don't see why such a well-argued campaign shouldn't have an impact on the wider Labour movement; especially as we approach the Brighton conference.

It's well argued but very late in the day and lacking detail on how to achieve those goals, which it would need at this stage. Compare LeFT to the Brexit party, who publicly at least have very similar aims.

 

[butchersapron]

Jesus

 

[Anju]

So why is sterling movement an indication of what the left should be doing in this instance then

That's not what I'm saying. I gave those examples as I think the left leave argument ignores the impact the vote has had. People I am very close to were hurt from day one and the LeFT thing is an insult to them. Just trying to get my point across with real life stuff.

 

[Anju]

Jesus

Why don't you either say something or leave it. What's are you hoping to achieve with the condescending comments?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Three years and this is all there is from the left side of Brexit?

Both the things you have linked to are just wish lists. Whoever is leading this didn't even bother to do half a days work on a website before putting out the founding statement. Where's the social media, how are the working class going to hear about this and get involved? Where's the list of union meetings or actions. Where's the press coverage? Three years, I've seen better campaigns put together in three days.

It's just the usual suspects going round in circles, ever decreasing circles if this is the extent of their efforts.

Then there's the actual content. The list of countries we will be trading with excludes the US and gives no idea how these new relationships will be more beneficial to us and the countries concerned. How to deal with Brazil for example.

How are, British, BAME people actually being represented when 75% voted remain. Same with NI and again no mention of the referendum result there. Are their views just wrong so it's OK for you to do what's best for them and simply ignore the stated aims regarding democracy.

Can't argue with some the realities of EU refugee policy but we don't have a party offering an egalitarian immigration and refugee policy so effectively no solution is offered by LeFT. At least some EU countries have resettled new arrivals to Italy and Greece. Last time I checked we had resettled 0 people and neither main party has committed to changing this. It could be that staying in the EU would lead to Britain being forced to adopt a better refugee policy. Not saying it will but it's as likely as Brexit leading to the same, possibly more so as the more powerful members would like a quota system.

Everybody here makes the assumption that I'm middle class. I'm not and neither are most of my social circle, yet none of us voted leave. How are we represented by LeFT? Against our will? Condescendingly from above? LeFT statements should at least qualify their use of the term with something like "leave voting working class"

Still at least we've got lots of time. Oh.

I can see the backstop issue being solved by rebranding it a border solution with agreed goals that the UK must meet. Basically changing the whole we can't leave without EU permission to we have agreed the solution and will be out when we implement it just like we wanted all along. Same thing different description. If not then it could be no deal exit in a couple of months.

Tories are already in election mode and doing stuff like this.
NHS bosses ordered to 'stick to script' that no-deal Brexit must happen on 31 October if necessary

If LeFT and their tiny website are the response to Tory Brexit everyone who's experienced abuse, lost their job or suffered from the drop in the pound as a result of the leave vote can sleep well tonight in the knowledge that another statement will be along shortly.

As you know I’ve spent 3 years on here bemoaning the failures of the left to engage properly on the issue. A disaster.

LeFT is the first serious attempt to address this with trade unionists, socialists and community activists from across the left committed to supporting, promoting and giving confidence to work developed from the ground up by the struggles and activities of the working class

Your bizarre sneers about the lack of social media when there is a Twitter, Facebook and blog are odd. As is your criticism of a network that has been in existence for a few weeks for failing to be on the brink of seizing power. You are correct that some of ‘the usual suspects’ are involved but there are also community activists, trade unionists and Marxists and libertarian communists - the only bond is our position vis the EU.

I don’t think LeFT could have been clearer on our position vis anti fascism, migrant rights and we expect to pursue ongoing work and new stuff in both areas. The idea black and other minority ethnic communities are automatically as remainiac as you are is offensive. My city - which is one of the most diverse in Britain - voted leave. The black and Asian stewards in my branch support leave and like the material LeFT has put out. There are black trade unionists, Irish republicans and community activists from across the board involved.

You are entitled to think remain and the status quo are the best we can hope for. You are entitled to disagree with anything we put out.

But lies about the lack of social media, sneers about the lack of weight of LeFT after a few weeks of its existence and the pathetic attempt to paint us as excluding the BAME workers is fucking offensive and gratuitously wide of the mark. You get the benefit of the doubt this time but any further attempts to paint us white will get an appropriate response

 

[philosophical]

Exhibit a

And where are the accusations of racism?
You are the picky one, maybe your forensic analysis can spot a question mark when it's there.
Elsewhere I am accused of 'multiple' racist smears (otherwise know as more than one) where in reality there are none.
For some reason you and others wish to perpetuate this trope, which I interpret along with all the personals as a way of avoiding any debate when things get tricky.
The recent spell is a case in point. some kind of organisation called LeFT pops up and says 'c'mon lets leave'. I yet again counter that by asking questions regarding the border, but when those questions get a little more tricky like what do LeFT suggest regarding transgressions in the event of their 'alternative arrangements' idea, to answer out comes the play the man not the ball stuff because they have no answer.
On a personal note it depresses me that people who call themselves of the left (some of the stratifications and stuff is way too convoluted to follow clearly) are eager to ally themselves with Nicky Morgan, Priti Patel, Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage, Mark Francois, Andrew Bridgen, Jacob Rees Mogg and others. It depresses me because it looks as if the nutcases have won over an element of the left who I thought might not be taken in by their self serving guff.
It is clearly a steal from David Lammy, but if those in LeFT wish to lay down with dogs, they will catch their fleas, something I personally don't wish to do.

 

[philosophical]

Exhibit b

Eh?

 

[philosophical]

I think a Tory Boris Johnson led Brexit will have a similar impact. Look at the spike in hate crime around the referendum. It's not like people thought oh we've won let's chill out.

I hope it isn't too embarrassing for you that I write in agreement.
My mixed race son commutes to London Bridge every day for work (he does other stuff too!), and he reported a definite increase in racist abuse towards him immediately after the vote, as well as feeling he had to intervene when racist abuse was directed at others. Since then there has not been a return to the point of the low level racist abuse he was used to, but general unembarrassed abuse has sustained itself at quite a high level for the past three years.
The far right has always been around, but brexit and the Stephen Yackitty Lookatme stuff along with other things had contaminated the life of a family member of mine in an increased way since the referendum.

 

[philosophical]

So again, you're unable to provide a genuine answer to a specific question.

I have provided a specific answer to a disingenuous question.

You also wrote 'I'm genuinely interested in whether philosophical can answer my question, which has been put to him a number of times without any coherent response'.

My responses are coherent although not in your individual opinion.
You can define 'genuine' and 'coherent' to suit your purposes all you like, and as a way of dismissing my answers. However you choose not to engage with the content of what I write for whatever your own reasons might be.
If you are in favour of leave what would you put in place to deal with transgressions at the border in Ireland between the UK and the EU?
Please be as genuine, coherent and specific as you like.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

The recent spell is a case in point. some kind of organisation called LeFT pops up and says 'c'mon lets leave'. I yet again counter that by asking questions regarding the border, but when those questions get a little more tricky like what do LeFT suggest regarding transgressions in the event of their 'alternative arrangements' idea, to answer out comes the play the man not the ball stuff because they have no answer.
On a personal note it depresses me that people who call themselves of the left (some of the stratifications and stuff is way too convoluted to follow clearly) are eager to ally themselves with Nicky Morgan, Priti Patel, Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage, Mark Francois, Andrew Bridgen, Jacob Rees Mogg and others. It depresses me because it looks as if the nutcases have won over an element of the left who I thought might not be taken in by their self serving guff.
It is clearly a steal from David Lammy, but if those in LeFT wish to lay down with dogs, they will catch their fleas, something I personally don't wish to do.

So you align with the IoD, CBI, Blair, Cameron, Clegg, Swinson, the Blairite rump in Labour, the IMF, the ECB etc? I ask to check if you are merely ridiculous and pathetic or politically abysmal as well. Either way, the fleas on you and your remain allies, that emanate from your disgusting politics include closed EU borders killing migrants in the sea, the punishment beating of ordinary Greeks and Italians, the 40% youth unemployment in Spain and Portugal and the far right groups you’ve given agency to. They are fucking vile fleas you’ve got. You citing the risible David Lanny about sums you up

On your border transgressions. There are border transgressions in every country, on every day of the week. The idea that border transgressions will bring down the GFA or the south of Ireland is frankly insane.

A temporary solution to the border in Ireland will have to be found. The options exist and have been set out in a paper that you continue to refuse to read. What hasn’t happened yet is serious negotiations about them for posturing reasons in Dublin and Brussels and Westminster. Your continued insistence that the people of Ireland hang on every word on this matter is just shite.

 

[Proper Tidy]

That's not what I'm saying. I gave those examples as I think the left leave argument ignores the impact the vote has had. People I am very close to were hurt from day one and the LeFT thing is an insult to them. Just trying to get my point across with real life stuff.

Yeah I know what you were saying. A section of left backed something which caused sterling to fall, ergo they acted against the working class. Which as we've established is not a consistent or honest position

 

[Anju]

As you know I’ve spent 3 years on here bemoaning the failures of the left to engage properly on the issue. A disaster.

LeFT is the first serious attempt to address this with trade unionists, socialists and community activists from across the left committed to supporting, promoting and giving confidence to work developed from the ground up by the struggles and activities of the working class

Your bizarre sneers about the lack of social media when there is a Twitter, Facebook and blog are odd. As is your criticism of a network that has been in existence for a few weeks for failing to be on the brink of seizing power. You are correct that some of ‘the usual suspects’ are involved but there are also community activists, trade unionists and Marxists and libertarian communists - the only bond is our position vis the EU.

I don’t think LeFT could have been clearer on our position vis anti fascism, migrant rights and we expect to pursue ongoing work and new stuff in both areas. The idea black and other minority ethnic communities are automatically as remainiac as you are is offensive. My city - which is one of the most diverse in Britain - voted leave. The black and Asian stewards in my branch support leave and like the material LeFT has put out. There are black trade unionists, Irish republicans and community activists from across the board involved.

You are entitled to think remain and the status quo are the best we can hope for. You are entitled to disagree with anything we put out.

But lies about the lack of social media, sneers about the lack of weight of LeFT after a few weeks of its existence and the pathetic attempt to paint us as excluding the BAME workers is fucking offensive and gratuitously wide of the mark. You get the benefit of the doubt this time but any further attempts to paint us white will get an appropriate response

The majority of non white people did vote remain so not sure what the issue is with the point I made. Not saying it's racist just that if a group of people voted overwhelmingly to remain you can't claim to represent them.

I don't see what LeFT can achieve at this point. If it was started 3 years ago then yes I could see you having an impact but a couple of months from a potential Tory Brexit, deal or no deal, is too late and with the possibility of a fresh 5 year start for them things look bleak.

I'm going to leave it here I think as it's a lovely day and I have other things to do.

Apologies if it seems like a personal attack. It isn't and although I would prefer to remain I would settle for a solution that makes life better for normal people.

 

[Pickman's model]

Eh?

B. Not a

 

[Pickman's model]

And where are the accusations of racism?
You are the picky one, maybe your forensic analysis can spot a question mark when it's there.
Elsewhere I am accused of 'multiple' racist smears (otherwise know as more than one) where in reality there are none.
For some reason you and others wish to perpetuate this trope, which I interpret along with all the personals as a way of avoiding any debate when things get tricky.
The recent spell is a case in point. some kind of organisation called LeFT pops up and says 'c'mon lets leave'. I yet again counter that by asking questions regarding the border, but when those questions get a little more tricky like what do LeFT suggest regarding transgressions in the event of their 'alternative arrangements' idea, to answer out comes the play the man not the ball stuff because they have no answer.
On a personal note it depresses me that people who call themselves of the left (some of the stratifications and stuff is way too convoluted to follow clearly) are eager to ally themselves with Nicky Morgan, Priti Patel, Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage, Mark Francois, Andrew Bridgen, Jacob Rees Mogg and others. It depresses me because it looks as if the nutcases have won over an element of the left who I thought might not be taken in by their self serving guff.
It is clearly a steal from David Lammy, but if those in LeFT wish to lay down with dogs, they will catch their fleas, something I personally don't wish to do.

your question is asking support or confirmation in your belief that everyone who voted brexit is racist. You therefore believe everyone who voted brexit is racist. It's admittedly not coming out and saying you're all racist but your intended meaning hides behind a tawdry figleaf

 

[Smokeandsteam]

The majority of non white people did vote remain so not sure what the issue is with the point I made. Not saying it's racist just that if a group of people voted overwhelmingly to remain you can't claim to represent them.

I don't see what LeFT can achieve at this point. If it was started 3 years ago then yes I could see you having an impact but a couple of months from a potential Tory Brexit, deal or no deal, is too late and with the possibility of a fresh 5 year start for them things look bleak.

I'm going to leave it here I think as it's a lovely day and I have other things to do.

Apologies if it seems like a personal attack. It isn't and although I would prefer to remain I would settle for a solution that makes life better for normal people.

If you read the thread you will see that LeFT hasn’t just been set up for the period between now and October/November. The explicit aim is to look longer than that because the fall out will reverberate for years (as will ongoing discussion about the nature of EU neo-liberalism).

Finally, it’s deeply offensive to lump all BAME voters into one category. There were significant differences by class, education, location and millions voted leave.