Is Brexit actually going to happen?
- Thread starter Kaka Tim
- Start date
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
So just have "our" representatives decide for us?
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Delegate democracy, economic democracy, soviets.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Why does it scream 'political failure'? To me it just screams 'misleading graphic'.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
That's still voting. In fact it's voting twice, so it just compounds the problem.
You may be onto something, more votes are required. We'll vote our way out of this mess.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
So what are you suggesting then?
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Well it will do for starters. Control of the MoP is the aim.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
Just that it's a mistake to think that just because you've had a vote you have a democracy. The fact that the same survey can produce completely different results by switching between two counting systems both widely considered legitimate shows that the results of a vote can be largely arbitrary.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Of course it is. But the answer is not to reduce democracy but to increase it.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
I'm not saying anything should be reduced. I'm saying that looking at the result of a general election, or a vote in Parliament, or a referendum and calling it the will of the people is, at least part of the time, a mistake, or possibly a lie.
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beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
Benevolent dictatorship.
Green dictatorship.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Bowling green
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Not really. If you're offering a choice between more than two options, taking the one that is the favourite of more people to be the winner doesn't make much sense, particularly when in this case two of the options are versions of leave but only one is a version of remain. It's not arbitrary to use a preference system to get your result - it's the way of getting the least-hated option as the winner. In most votes of this nature, 'least hated' is probably the best you can do. But this is also an illustration of how the first vote wasn't a mandate for the various things that have been proposed to have been mandated by it - particularly the ending of free movement from/to the EU.
One way out of this mess may be for May's deal to be voted down, for May to then resign, and then for May's successor to announce an extension of A50 in order to allow for a general election and calling a general election. That way, everyone can campaign giving a clear idea of what they intend to do next: cancel brexit (which is very likely to be an option from Monday), hold a second ref (which I think would not be a very popular option), or go back in to renegotiate a new deal (with details of what you'll be trying to achieve). Regarding democracy, I think this is about the most democratic option available. It could lead to a cancellation of brexit, but not until there has been a democratic debate and process. Either way, it would put the onus back on those who seek to govern to say how they will try to govern. At the moment, you have 'the referendum must be honoured' being used by various parties, currently May, to cover up for the crap job they're doing.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
I almost certainly dream similar dreams - but - how we use Brexit to gain control of the Means of Production .. I mean exactly how, in stages .. I'm missing that bit. It's actually my number 1 gripe with this whole mess.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Regardless of the UK leaving the EU or not, greater democracy has to be something socialists/communists/anarchists push for.
It was always there but the contempt for democracy that liberal pro-EU pricks have come out with since the referendum shows which side they are on and it isn't ours.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
No it isn't - and neither is the leave shit, outside of eg the Morning Star's take on it all. The people chiefly responsible for the planning, promotion and execution of Leave / Brexit, they're not on our side. We're letting them get away with this egregious fuckery because we don't want to be in the EU, but what we're going to gain from it apart from some abstract nouns is truly a mystery to me.
And as for how we get from ''here'' to ''there'', well.
And as for how we get from ''here'' to ''there'', well.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
We just have a t
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Apparently it gives you the will of people in, where is that, Watford and Bournemouth?
Harlow and Christchurch maybe.
gosub
~#
My start point on that would have been acknowledging the need for a hard border (mostly hedge (thus free movement of wild life (snakes and that sort of thing) but hard enough to stop findus horse lasagne. Promise to bring people doing bat shit things with wood chip burners under close examination of the law and as to the vexing complex long standing argument argument at the core of the troubles....
To me the colour of cheese and onion crisps is as much an inter island matter as as an inter Ireland one ...as much is true of both islands.
Corbyn’s latest pitch.
Not much we didn’t know already, but he’s now put his voice behind the conference decision on 2nd ref:
“if under the current rules we cannot get an election, all options must be on the table. Those should include Labour’s alternative and, as our conference decided in September, the option of campaigning for a public vote to break the deadlock.”
Jeremy Corbyn: Labour could do a better Brexit deal. Give us the chance
Not much we didn’t know already, but he’s now put his voice behind the conference decision on 2nd ref:
“if under the current rules we cannot get an election, all options must be on the table. Those should include Labour’s alternative and, as our conference decided in September, the option of campaigning for a public vote to break the deadlock.”
Jeremy Corbyn: Labour could do a better Brexit deal. Give us the chance
not-bono-ever
meh
I respect anyone who still truly believes in a lexit outcome to this - seriously - my jaundiced and cynical outlook still has the same old shit running the show afterwards. I wish I could believe in anything else at the minute
Crispy
The following psytrance is baṉned: All
But neither party even have a clear idea of what they intend to do next.
not-bono-ever
meh
unknown unknowns
It’s come to something when the Economist runs their “end of year awards” opinion piece on the parliamentary establishment, which can be summarised as “bunch of cunts”.
The Economist | Prize idiots
Our end-of-year awards celebrate the worst in politics
The Economist | Prize idiots
Our end-of-year awards celebrate the worst in politics
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