Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[not-bono-ever]

McDonnell gets a nod for having a brain

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But neither party even have a clear idea of what they intend to do next.

I know. That's why there needs to be a general election. Force them to make a stand. The big thing that has been absent from this whole process is accountability - governments can't hold the electorate accountable for their policies in the way May is currently trying to do. A new government elected after this fiasco will be able to be held accountable for what they do. If they decide to continue with brexit, they can be held accountable for any consequent mess. If they decide to cancel it, they can at least put that up as what they intend to do before the election, giving it some legitimacy.

Probably not a popular thing to say on here, but imo a brave move (and possibly a smart move) for Labour would be to campaign on a policy of cancelling brexit - not a 2nd ref, just revoking A50. Be honest about it - there is no such thing as a 'good deal'; there's no magic wand a labour negotiation team would be able to wave; any deal they might bring to a second ref, they wouldn't really believe that it was better than just not brexitting at all - 'we've worked really hard to get you this deal, but we recommend you vote against it' even if done in good faith just sounds like a stitch-up. Brexit done this way at least is just a bad idea - that's what most of them think. Let them say it. Admit that it was a mistake to support triggering A50 as they did. But at the same time really engage about the things you intend to do regarding austerity, the housing crisis, etc. Brexit is not the answer to any of those questions.

imo Labour have handled this very very badly. They've allowed themselves to be dragged into it and tarnished by it. That makes doing the above trickier. But what other solution is there? Taking a bad deal to a 2nd ref doesn't solve anything - we're back to politicians trying to blame the electorate for the consequences of their policies.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

"Why do people cut themselves? Obviously, because they are unhappy, frustrated, angry. They feel that no one cares about them, no one listens to them. But it still seems hard to understand the attractions of inflicting pain on yourself. Three things seem to make cutting addictive. One is that it gives the pain you feel a name and a location. It becomes tangible and visible – it has an immediate focus that is somehow more tolerable than the larger, deeper distress. The second is that it provides the illusion of control. You choose to do it – you are taking an action and producing a result. It is a kind of power, even if the only one you can exercise that power over is yourself and even if the only thing you can do to yourself is damage. And the third is that it can seem in an unhappy mind like an act of love.

You can hurt yourself for someone or something. “So,” sings the great balladeer of English self-pity Morrissey, “scratch my name on your arm with a fountain pen. This means you really love me.” For some, marking Leave on the ballot paper in June 2016 was a way of scratching the name of England on their arms to prove their love."

That is amazing. Properly describes a lot of what I've been thinking of the emotional reasoning behind many people's Brexit vote.

Despicable and beyond tasteless. you liberals will be the first to parade it above all of us how in tune you are with mental health difficulties and will deploy it in such a crass way to point score. filth. no wonder mh services in this country are fucked. even if they were well funded this kind of snobbery would just alienate people even more.

 

[Wookey]

Despicable and beyond tasteless. you'll be the first to parade it above all of us how in tune you are with mental health and will deploy it in such a crss way to point score. filth.

You have issues beyond this thread mate.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

Fintan O'Toole may be many things, but second-rate writer is not one of them. Here he is back in February laying out exactly the problem that has led to exactly this deal from May, and that had to lead to this deal.

Sometimes an outside voice is needed, and I think this is one of those instances. When he says this



I think he is very right.

He pours scorn on the leading brexiters, Johnson, Davis and Gove, for the intellectual bankruptcy of their positions. And he does so with suitable anger.

Intellectual rigor, amirite?

 

[ManchesterBeth]

You have issues beyond this thread mate.

No, i am making a valid political point. MH is political. don't fucking call me mate either, especially when it will be you social democrats to sell us out to the far right if ever a situation like that arises. thanks.

 

[pocketscience]

I know. That's why there needs to be a general election. Force them to make a stand. The big thing that has been absent from this whole process is accountability - governments can't hold the electorate accountable for their policies in the way May is currently trying to do. A new government elected after this fiasco will be able to be held accountable for what they do. If they decide to continue with brexit, they can be held accountable for any consequent mess. If they decide to cancel it, they can at least put that up as what they intend to do before the election, giving it some legitimacy.

Probably not a popular thing to say on here, but imo a brave move (and possibly a smart move) for Labour would be to campaign on a policy of cancelling brexit - not a 2nd ref, just revoking A50. Be honest about it - there is no such thing as a 'good deal'; there's no magic wand a labour negotiation team would be able to wave; any deal they might bring to a second ref, they wouldn't really believe that it was better than just not brexitting at all - 'we've worked really hard to get you this deal, but we recommend you vote against it' even if done in good faith just sounds like a stitch-up. Brexit done this way at least is just a bad idea - that's what most of them think. Let them say it. Admit that it was a mistake to support triggering A50 as they did. But at the same time really engage about the things you intend to do regarding austerity, the housing crisis, etc. Brexit is not the answer to any of those questions.

imo Labour have handled this very very badly. They've allowed themselves to be dragged into it and tarnished by it. That makes doing the above trickier. But what other solution is there? Taking a bad deal to a 2nd ref doesn't solve anything - we're back to politicians trying to blame the electorate for the consequences of their policies.

They had the chance to make a stand at the last election and neither did. What makes you think they'll do it this time?
and please stop projecting your "cancel brexit" preference behind the deep political insights with every.single.one.of.your.fucking.posts...please.

 

[Humberto]

I see it coming out as basically staying in the EU with less benefits vs shoot ourselves in the face and no deal. We've had a succession of ministers that have tactically resigned or been booted out after getting us nowhere. Keir Starmer is still there. What does he stand for? Are they all hiding behind a Lexit by stealth or let them topple themselves gamble? At the end of the day, politics doesn't go on hold because of a hung parliament/Brexit impasse

 

[ManchesterBeth]

Of course it is. But the answer is not to reduce democracy but to increase it.

Or alternatively

 

[paolo]

At the end of the day, politics doesn't go on hold because of a hung parliament/Brexit impasse

Right now though, that’s exactly what it feels like. We’re in a weird never-seen-before stasis cum turmoil.

It *shouldn’t* be like this, for sure, but we are where are, and it’s rubbish for anyone with an interest either way.

 

[pocketscience]

This thread like no other really shows the divide.
You can feel the ardent remainers frothing at the prospect that this threat to thier privileges could be collapsing, that the restoration of the stability and growth of thier privilged status quo is within grasp. They're going for the kill.
While the few of us that have the bottle, or better said the misfortune in life - through permanently peering into the financial abyss, realise that that brexit poses a lifetime opportunity to front the old UK elites, the core of capital no less, to a proverbial one-on-one ''outside in the carpark" are being left exposed.
Sure, that fight still needs to be settled, but what a bunch of worthless shitcunts some are, doing the elites dirty work for them from within our ranks, spreadibg the neoliberal fear of 'negative growth', 'drops in house prices', '''what will the city think?'...
Scared that mummy and daddy's wealth will be wiped out and all that inheritance turn to shit?
Lexit here nor there, the rise of corbyn on the back of brexit wasnt just a coincidence and coversely, still banging on about remain 2 years down the line is nothing short of a knife in the back of socialism.

 

[teuchter]

This thread like no other really shows the divide.
You can feel the ardent remainers frothing at the prospect that this threat to thier privileges could be collapsing, that the restoration of the stability and growth of thier privilged status quo is within grasp. They're going for the kill.
While the few of us that have the bottle, or better said the misfortune in life - through permanently peering into the financial abyss, realise that that brexit poses a lifetime opportunity to front the old UK elites, the core of capital no less, to a proverbial one-on-one ''outside in the carpark" are being left exposed.
Sure, that fight still needs to be settled, but what a bunch of worthless shitcunts some are, doing the elites dirty work for them from within our ranks, spreadibg the neoliberal fear of 'negative growth', 'drops in house prices', '''what will the city think?'...
Scared that mummy and daddy's wealth will be wiped out and all that inheritance turn to shit?
Lexit here nor there, the rise of corbyn on the back of brexit wasnt just a coincidence and coversely, still banging on about remain 2 years down the line is nothing short of a knife in the back of socialism.

More hand-wavy stuff.
What or where exactly is the carpark of opportunity?

 

[Kaka Tim]

This thread like no other really shows the divide.
You can feel the ardent remainers frothing at the prospect that this threat to thier privileges could be collapsing, that the restoration of the stability and growth of thier privilged status quo is within grasp. They're going for the kill.
While the few of us that have the bottle, or better said the misfortune in life - through permanently peering into the financial abyss, realise that that brexit poses a lifetime opportunity to front the old UK elites, the core of capital no less, to a proverbial one-on-one ''outside in the carpark" are being left exposed.
Sure, that fight still needs to be settled, but what a bunch of worthless shitcunts some are, doing the elites dirty work for them from within our ranks, spreadibg the neoliberal fear of 'negative growth', 'drops in house prices', '''what will the city think?'... scared that mummy and daddy's wealth will be wiped out and all that inheritance turn to shit.
Lexit here nor there, the rise of corbyn on the back of brexit wasnt just a coincidence - and coversely, still banging on about remain now is a vote for privileged neoliberalism - and a knife in the back of socialism.

oh please fuck off with the self righteous prolier-than-thou-wank. most people on here who are anti-brexit hold that position because they believe it will make things significantly worse for the people who are already fucked over - i.e higher prices, unemployment, even greater cuts to services plus the clear hazard of the shredding of regulations across a whole host of areas from employment rights to food standards to health and safety. oh - and the threat of nhs privatisation. and the fucking over of the lives of everyone in northern ireland cos the reintroduction of the border.
has one single person mentioned fucking house prices? or what the city will think?

I work in a community centre in one of the most deprived areas of leeds. I am absolutely certain that brexit will make it significantly harder to fund the programs we run - everything from benefits advice to a bike library to community arts to advocacy to a youth club. Because there will be less money from local authorities and other funders. At the the same time the demand for our services will increase.
There is no great opportunity that a radicalised working class is going to up and seize. they will not be confronting the captains of capital one on one in the carpark. It will just make life even meaner and shitter for people who are already on the edge.

 

[Yossarian]

I'd think something pretty fucking shifty was going on if I confronted the old UK elites in a carpark and Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson offered to hold my coat.

 

[Raheem]

Trying to work out whether the car park analogy is better or shitter than the divorce one. Or maybe Brexit is actually like a divorce on a car park.

 

[redsquirrel]

has one single person mentioned fucking house prices? or what the city will think?

Numerous people have talked about how leaving the EU will 'harm the economy', the analysis of the BoE has been posited as a neutral apolitical body, the spoutings of libdem 'trade experts' have been posted favourably.

No it isn't - and neither is the leave shit, outside of eg the Morning Star's take on it all. The people chiefly responsible for the planning, promotion and execution of Leave / Brexit, they're not on our side.

Of course they aren't. But the difference is that no one on U75 (bar a few UKIP-lite loons who inevitably get booted after a while) has argued that they are. Whereas some U75 posters have argued that the EU is on the side of the workers, individuals/groups supporting remain have been quoted approvingly regardless of their shitty politics

 

[ManchesterBeth]

'the economy.'

 

[ManchesterBeth]

There is no great opportunity that a radicalised working class is going to up and seize. they will not be confronting the captains of capital one on one in the carpark. It will just make life even meaner and shitter for people who are already on the edge.

ive said it loads of times there is no 'lexit' and whatever the result, remain will win. but it is dubious at best that your side (not you personally btw!) is willing to castigate people who advance this line or refused to vote. imagine being uncritical of an institution that contributed to the deaths of nearly 4000 migrants and refugees alone last year.

And leading on from this everything gets made to retrofit into a guilt tripping narritive.

workers get sacked/capital pushes chhanges on industry? brexit. more cuts? brexit.
unions fail to represent immigrants? brexit.
corbyn puts more cops on the table? fortress britain and brexit.

rise in racism? brexit

more knife crime? brexit.

this is hardly analysis is it. it's just succumbing to media spectacle.

 

[pocketscience]

I work in a community centre in one of the most deprived areas of leeds...

Bully for you. EU funded by any chance?

 

[andysays]

I know. That's why there needs to be a general election. Force them to make a stand. The big thing that has been absent from this whole process is accountability - governments can't hold the electorate accountable for their policies in the way May is currently trying to do. A new government elected after this fiasco will be able to be held accountable for what they do. If they decide to continue with brexit, they can be held accountable for any consequent mess. If they decide to cancel it, they can at least put that up as what they intend to do before the election, giving it some legitimacy.

Probably not a popular thing to say on here, but imo a brave move (and possibly a smart move) for Labour would be to campaign on a policy of cancelling brexit - not a 2nd ref, just revoking A50. Be honest about it - there is no such thing as a 'good deal'; there's no magic wand a labour negotiation team would be able to wave; any deal they might bring to a second ref, they wouldn't really believe that it was better than just not brexitting at all - 'we've worked really hard to get you this deal, but we recommend you vote against it' even if done in good faith just sounds like a stitch-up. Brexit done this way at least is just a bad idea - that's what most of them think. Let them say it. Admit that it was a mistake to support triggering A50 as they did. But at the same time really engage about the things you intend to do regarding austerity, the housing crisis, etc. Brexit is not the answer to any of those questions.

imo Labour have handled this very very badly. They've allowed themselves to be dragged into it and tarnished by it. That makes doing the above trickier. But what other solution is there? Taking a bad deal to a 2nd ref doesn't solve anything - we're back to politicians trying to blame the electorate for the consequences of their policies.

#desperately attempts to avoid mangling that Brecht quote about the government kicking out the electorate and appointing another one. Fails...#

 

[andysays]

More hand-wavy stuff.
What or where exactly is the carpark of opportunity?

The car park of opportunity leads to the shopping centre of the imagination

 

[brogdale]

#desperately attempts to avoid mangling that Brecht quote about the government kicking out the electorate and appointing another one. Fails...#

This bit?

"...the people
Had forfeited the confidence of the government
And could win it back only
By redoubled efforts. Would it not be easier
In that case for the government
To dissolve the people
And elect another?"​

 

[redsquirrel]

Bully for you. EU funded by any chance?

I agree with a lot of what you posted on this thread. And I know that sometimes it can be exasperating (I've been a bit quick off the trigger myself occasionally), but I think this is a bit unfair.

I disagree with much of Kaka Tim's analysis but he's motivated by a genuine concern about how the UK leaving the EU will affect his local community - just as you are.

 

[pocketscience]

Trying to work out whether the car park analogy is better or shitter than the divorce one. Or maybe Brexit is actually like a divorce on a car park.

or that half of 'the left' don't have the will to fight the fight that needs to be fought, but would rather sneer from the sidelines.

 

[JuanTwoThree]

I'm curious about why Lexit seems to be such a British thing. It's at odds with the views of Podemos, Syriza and the rest of the left (mostly) in the mainland EU. There's certainly a degree or ten of Euroscepticism but there's also a willingness to turn it into a community of nations among the left nationalists and there are ideas like mutualisation of debt being floated (although Podemos would like national control of currency brought back, I think). Is a return to at least the social Europe envisaged by Brandt not an option? Achieved by staying in and changing things?

Britain obviously has an opinion about Europe that crosses ideologies while Spain, say, has a generally positive almost visceral need to be in a European community that also crosses similar ideologies.

Perhaps it's physical geography and history that changes the left's view of Europe in different parts of it.

 

[pocketscience]

I agree with a lot of what you posted on this thread. And I know that sometimes it can be exasperating (I've been a bit quick off the trigger myself occasionally), but I think this is a bit unfair.

I disagree with much of Kaka Tim's analysis but he's motivated by a genuine concern about how the UK leaving the EU will affect his local community - just as you are.

I'm glad you picked up on that, and I completely agree with what you say. my comment was in context and probably only Kaka Tim got it. I was reflecting his own bully for you moment up thread, where he couldn't help himself by ridiculing my outlook on life despite being told about the precarious financial situation me and my family are in. It was a cunts trick and nobody pulled him up on it then... no respect. Back at him.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm glad you picked up on that, and I completely agree with what you say. my comment was in context and probably only Kaka Tim got it. I was reflecting his own bully for you moment up thread, where he couldn't help himself by ridiculing my outlook on life despite being told about the precarious financial situation me and my family are in. It was a cunts trick and nobody pulled him up on it then... no respect. Back at him.

sorry, i missed that

 

[co-op]

I'm curious about why Lexit seems to be such a British thing. It's at odds with the views of Podemos, Syriza and the rest of the left (mostly) in the mainland EU. .

I've wondered this too. The best books I've read on why we need a lexit was Varoufakis's description of how the Syriza govt in Greece was destroyed by the EU and then you see him actually pounding the streets of Britain campaigning for Remain. Seriously I might have swallowed the mainstream Remain argument if I hadn't read him, and I still don't get how he can maintain the position. If it was Greece we were talking about then I can see it - it's a tiny country with a militarist nationalist Turkey next door, a collapsing state in Syria, refugees by the thousand, all sorts of war potential. But the UK? Surely he can see we have the option and given the reality of what the EU actually does (as opposed to its fluffy talk) we should be taking that seriously, at least to weaken the EU as much as possible. Don't get it.

 

[Pickman's model]

Varoufakis's description of how the Syriza govt in Greece was destroyed by the EU

and of course - *of course* - the uk government had nothing whatsoever to do with that, they just happened to be at the big table where decisions were made, purely by chance, stood idly by etc.


all the fault of the eu, nothing to do with auld blighty, right.

 

[brogdale]

But the UK? Surely he can see we have the option and...

Do we?
What evidence of that would Yanis be able to see?