Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[DotCommunist]

I have never heard it argued (perhaps it can be argued, but I have never heard it) that the EU had no choices in the Greece crisis. It was said at the time, and it is still said, that a different, more generous settlement for Greece was always possible and (particularly with hindsight) could have been more successful. Not simply as a matter of abstract theory, but in the very actual sense that there were realisable proposals and some degree of political will in the various European capitals that could have brought them to fruition

post 2008 they bailed the Republic of Ireland out to the tune of 64 billion euros. Greece had been in a shit state since before the crash and they just tightened the screws. It was an enormous fuck you to a member state unable to do anything about it. It was ideological, pure and simple. The same reasons they are going to do their level best to dry bum the UK for daring to opt out.

 

[Raheem]

post 2008 they bailed the Republic of Ireland out to the tune of 64 billion euros. Greece had been in a shit state since before the crash and they just tightened the screws. It was an enormous fuck you to a member state unable to do anything about it. It was ideological, pure and simple. The same reasons they are going to do their level best to dry bum the UK for daring to opt out.

I'm not sure I would disagree with any of that, apart from the last sentence, maybe. But it doesn't seem widely disputed that the key ideological driver in the whole thing was a parochial "my country's not going to pay for your country's mistakes". Absent that, things would probably have been different. Or do you think it wasn't really about that?

 

[elbows]

I see there has been a partial climbdown over maintaining the scope of the EU charter on fundamental rights, in order to avoid a possible defeat in parliament:

Government backs down over EU human rights to avoid risk of defeat

Several of the amendments were tabled by Dominic Grieve, the Tory former attorney general and a leading Brexit rebel, with speculation that enough of his fellow Tories would back some of these to inflict defeat.

However, the solicitor general, Robert Buckland, said the government was willing to work with Grieve to see how rights under the charter could be kept after Brexit, and would introduce its own amendment to this effect later in the bill’s passage.

Grieve said this was sufficient reassurance for him and that he would not press for a vote on his amendments.

 

[Hollis]

What a shame, I'd have felt so much safer under a British Bill of Rights.

 

[DotCommunist]

I'm not sure I would disagree with any of that, apart from the last sentence, maybe. But it doesn't seem widely disputed that the key ideological driver in the whole thing was a parochial "my country's not going to pay for your country's mistakes". Absent that, things would probably have been different. Or do you think it wasn't really about that?

Tabloid jingoism aside its not really that parochial or chauvinist imo. Elements in there perhaps. But the european project demands, thats what it was. Remember they had a vote in greece on wether to stay in the EU or not, and they stayed. Fears from the days of the generals, fears of exclusion from the markets making things even worse- lots of factors. At the time it was said that schaubles was willing to release a 40blln pound gift for them to get out of the union. Came to nothing of course.

you have to remember with our state as well its the haute bourgeoisie absolutely committed to this pan european project where capital has no borders but labour representation-effectively- does.

theres loads to unpack about this and its ground covered so many times but for all its faults I thought the EU might, might be able to be influenced before greece. And so it is, by its strongest members in the end. Weaker nations just get to eat shit and cut social programs

 

[coley]

This is one of the things that annoyed me most about right leave campaigners - their bleating about the 8 billion a year net input. Some of that went towards running the bureaucracy, for sure (and much of that spend will come back to the UK when it has to run all its own affairs), but the rest is money that went to help the more deprived regions. When Johnson talked of this money going 'god knows where', he was being deliberately disingenuous. And the UK isn't top of the list of net inputters per capita - some other countries pay even more.

One country pays more, Germany, and what country benefits most from the EU?

 

[coley]

Therein lies the problem. If the UK had control of its own funds, the "deprived regions" in our own country could have benefited instead.

Very true, and given the UK is one of the most, if not the most generous country in the World, when it come to charity or just helping out generally, then I doubt if those deprived areas abroad are going to suffer.
No doubt the deprived areas of the UK won't see any benefit.

 

[coley]

Tabloid jingoism aside its not really that parochial or chauvinist imo. Elements in there perhaps. But the european project demands, thats what it was. Remember they had a vote in greece on wether to stay in the EU or not, and they stayed. Fears from the days of the generals, fears of exclusion from the markets making things even worse- lots of factors. At the time it was said that schaubles was willing to release a 40blln pound gift for them to get out of the union. Came to nothing of course.

you have to remember with our state as well its the haute bourgeoisie absolutely committed to this pan european project where capital has no borders but labour representation-effectively- does.

theres loads to unpack about this and its ground covered so many times but for all its faults I thought the EU might, might be able to be influenced before greece. And so it is, by its strongest members in the end. Weaker nations just get to eat shit and cut social programs

The EU has, in the last few years become the Neoliberals 'wet dream'
I've despised them for donkeys years, but for them to use the EU arrest warrant against democratically elected Representatives of the Catalonian region?
Fuck em.
Out, as soon as.

 

[Raheem]

The EU has, in the last few years become the Neoliberals 'wet dream'
I've despised them for donkeys years, but for them to use the EU arrest warrant against democratically elected Representatives of the Catalonian region?

Is that really the definition of a neoliberal's wet dream?

 

[coley]

Yeh but it's on the cards my love

No, the more the EU comes across as a blackmailing bunch of turds, the more people in the UK will see them for what they are.
A bunch of unelected corporation loving Neoliberals.
I love the way they are belabouring the UK for the money while ignoring the unravelling of their 'principles' in Poland, jeez, a Nazi rally and it hardly gets a mention in the hallowed halls of the EU?

 

[Raheem]

Tabloid jingoism aside its not really that parochial or chauvinist imo. Elements in there perhaps. But the european project demands, thats what it was.

Could you explain what you think the European project demanded? It doesn't seem very obvious that the way things unfolded was useful to the EU project, except maybe as a lesson about what not to do.

 

[coley]

We're also self-sufficient in whisky.

...till Scotland leaves the UK, heh

A distillery recently opened in the Lake District and the Japanese hold the gold medal for the 'best' malt whisky.
And NZ makes a canny whisky, along with its very decent wines.

 

[coley]

Is that really the definition of a neoliberal's wet dream?

The imposition of a ( corporation financed ) bureaucracy over a democratically elected ( if however imperfect) party?
Aye, I imagine it is.

 

[Raheem]

The imposition of a ( corporation financed ) bureaucracy over a democratically elected ( if however imperfect) party?
Aye, I imagine it is.

But surely the neoliberal system turning in on itself and arresting its own is a good thing?

 

[coley]

But surely the neoliberal system turning in on itself and arresting its own is a good thing?

It is, but the philosophy of the destruction of Neoliberalism has been turned on its head, in Europe its facing real opposition while in the US it's just received a huge boost due to the Trump.
We live in 'interesting times'

 

[DotCommunist]

Could you explain what you think the European project demanded? It doesn't seem very obvious that the way things unfolded was useful to the EU project, except maybe as a lesson about what not to do.

and yet it happened anyway. These competent managers of a pan european bloc simply allowed this to happen? No agency, no overriding logic? As for the rest well the thing is you are assuming a huge amount of good faith in what the eu is for and how it operates and for whom.

enough for tonight from me tho. Discuss this anon

 

[Happy Larry]

No, the more the EU comes across as a blackmailing bunch of turds, the more people in the UK will see them for what they are.
A bunch of unelected corporation loving Neoliberals.

I hope so. There are still some here though who love "big government" and not just those with a vested interest like the politicians and importers.

We entered a customs union/tariff free zone. The EU has expanded into a body that appears to want total control over the decisions made in its member states.

 

[coley]

I hope so. There are still some here though who love "big government" and not just those with a vested interest like the politicians and importers.

We entered a customs union/tariff free zone. The EU has expanded into a body that appears to want total control over the decisions made in its member states.

I voted to join a common market many moons ago, the sly, incremental imposition of a federal States of Europe wasn't something I wanted or expected, so I was more than happy to get a vote to reject it.
It's something that could have happened, in a gradual way, to the benefit of all, but the EU elite wanted it now, in their electoral lifetime.

So, fuck em.

And Australian/NZ/SA wine is soooooo better, sorry France

 

[Pickman's model]

No, the more the EU comes across as a blackmailing bunch of turds, the more people in the UK will see them for what they are.
A bunch of unelected corporation loving Neoliberals.
I love the way they are belabouring the UK for the money while ignoring the unravelling of their 'principles' in Poland, jeez, a Nazi rally and it hardly gets a mention in the hallowed halls of the EU?

Yet it's still on the cards

 

[2hats]

And Australian/NZ/SA wine is soooooo better, sorry France

Drinking French instead of Italian wine - easy mistake to make.

 

[pocketscience]

...the key ideological driver in the whole thing was a parochial "my country's not going to pay for your country's mistakes".

Of all countries, you'd have thought that Germany would have come to understand the value of transnational altruism when it comes to dealing with another country's past misdemeanours. After paying fuck all reparations to the countries it had occupied and destroyed (including Greece), having its external debts significantly slashed post war, having other nations heavily invest in setting up its now "civil" society - you'd think so, right?
Well now we now. That civility stays within its borders and they wont be applying such altruism to their brothers and sisters within the "union" they so greatly sing the praises of.
.and that's not even getting into how complicit German politicians and businesses were in exploiting the corruption plaguing Greece, when it suited them, in the late 90's and early naughties.

 

[Pickman's model]

Of all countries, you'd have thought that Germany would have come to understand the value of transnational altruism when it comes to dealing with another country's past misdemeanours. After paying fuck all reparations to the countries it had occupied and destroyed (including Greece), having its external debts significantly slashed post war, having other nations heavily invest in setting up its now "civil" society - you'd think so, right?
Well now we now. That civility stays within its borders and they wont be applying such altruism to their brothers and sisters within the "union" they so greatly sing the praises of.
.and that's not even getting into how complicit German politicians and businesses were in exploiting the corruption plaguing Greece when it suited them in the late 90's and early naughties.

yeh. you do know about the factories dismantled and taken to the ussr, right?

 

[alex_]

Of all countries, you'd have thought that Germany would have come to understand the value of transnational altruism when it comes to dealing with another country's past misdemeanours. After paying fuck all reparations to the countries it had occupied and destroyed (including Greece), having its external debts significantly slashed post war, having other nations heavily invest in setting up its now "civil" society - you'd think so, right?

Because reparations worked out so well in 1918.

Alex

 

[Pickman's model]

Because reparations worked out so well in 1918.

Alex

not to mention that a decision was made at yalta that 1918 wouldn't be repeated and reparations would be taken in plant.

 

[ohmyliver]

The EU has, in the last few years become the Neoliberals 'wet dream'

You've read up on the Legatum institute, the think tank behind the Tory brexitiers?

 

[ohmyliver]

We entered a customs union/tariff free zone. The EU has expanded into a body that appears to want total control over the decisions made in its member states.

With all due respect, the European Parliament had tax raising powers since 1970, and greater political/economic convergence was always a stated goal, it's been a lot slower than the proposals of the early 70s.. You might want to read up on why parliamentarians like Benn, and Powell, were vocal supporters of the leave campaign in '75.

 

[Pickman's model]

With all due respect, the European Parliament had tax raising powers since 1970, and greater political/economic convergence was always a stated goal, it's been a lot slower than the proposals of the early 70s.. You might want to read up on why parliamentarians like Benn, and Powell, were vocal supporters of the leave campaign in '75.

yeh. he might want to. but he won't.

 

[gosub]

tbf The Europeans have been pretty clear about the direction of travel since before we joined. Its our politicians who've spent the last 40 years saying the train isn't going where they said it was going. Which must have been pretty frustrating for the other passangers, especially as there was another train simultaneously going to where the UK said it wanted to go - EFTA, which is far more the we just want a common market trading relationship type train.

 

[pocketscience]

Because reparations worked out so well in 1918.

Alex

I can't work out if you're trying to reiterate my point or argue against it in some disingenuous way.

The fact that the allies rescinded Germany's debts and reparation obligations (which would have doubtlessly crippled the German economy further) makes Germany's insistence on austerity for the Greek economy, just to pay off ever mounting interest on ever mounting debts, all the more shameful.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

One country pays more, Germany, and what country benefits most from the EU?

The meaningful stat is payment per capita. By that measure, lots of countries pay in more than the UK. Due to its rebate, the UK pays less than other equivalently rich countries. Despite its debt problems, Italy pays more than the UK currently.