Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[Pickman's model]

Answer the question. The Tories are in government. What control are they able to exercise over the Brexit process?

they had control, they relinquished it.

they could have said, ok, we'll go for efta, after all it's not the eu
they could have said, ok, we'll chat to moldova - not a big country but we need all the friends we can get
but at every step along the way they've ceded control of the process to the european union and have so alienated significant countries in the wto that a no deal brexit will plummet everything into chaos

 

[redsquirrel]

Who do we support in any political process? Not the political elite on either side.

Exactly. The idea that we have to play the game by the terms the state or capital set us is crazy. That's how they win.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Can anybody help spacklfrog?

He or she wants to know how the tories are involved in the negotiations.

How, I know it’s a stretch, can anyone do some investigative reporting.

Just *how* are the tories talking to the EU?

You're backsliding now. You said the Tories were controlling the process, I asked what you meant by that. Now you've shifted and you're saying the Tories are in the negotiations.

And you're trying to be funny. Don't do that. Even your own mother wouldn't laugh at your jokes.

 

[danny la rouge]

At some point I. This


We’re leaving the EU.

The Tories are in power.

Have I missed something? Unicorns?

Follow your own logic. Had Remain won (led by Cameron and Osborne, remember), and the Tories had stayed in power (the next general election was not due until May 2020), would that have been a "Tory Remain"? Would you and others have been going on about the "Tory Remain"? And if not, why not?

 

[Pickman's model]

You're backsliding now. You said the Tories were controlling the process, I asked what you meant by that. Now you've shifted and you're saying the Tories are in the negotiations.

And you're trying to be funny. Don't do that. Even your own mother wouldn't laugh at your jokes.

he's funny peculiar and not funny haha

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

they had control, they relinquished it.

they could have said, ok, we'll go for efta, after all it's not the eu
they could have said, ok, we'll chat to moldova - not a big country but we need all the friends we can get
but at every step along the way they've ceded control of the process to the european union and have so alienated significant countries in the wto that a no deal brexit will plummet everything into chaos

Sums it up nicely. Fucking great, innit

 

[Pickman's model]

Sums it up nicely. Fucking great, innit

the natural party of government

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

the natural party of government

Strong and stable.

 

[Pickman's model]

Strong and stable.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Follow your own logic. Had Remain won (led by Cameron and Osborne, remember), and the Tories had stayed in power (the next general election was not due until May 2020), would that have been a "Tory Remain"? Would you and others have been going on about the "Tory Remain"? And if not, why not?

It was also supported by Labour, indeed they still want to remain some sort of union. Cameron would never have called a referendum were it not for pressure from within his own party.

 

[danny la rouge]

It was also supported by Labour, indeed they still want to remain some sort of union. Cameron would never have called a referendum were it not for pressure from within his own party.

The Tories were and are in power. It would be a Tory Remain.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Follow your own logic. Had Remain won (led by Cameron and Osborne, remember), and the Tories had stayed in power (the next general election was not due until May 2020), would that have been a "Tory Remain"? Would you and others have been going on about the "Tory Remain"? And if not, why not?

I can answer that for me. No. Because 'leave' is an active thing, involving concrete changes that are either damaging or not. Tory cuts, tory 'austerity', these are also active things. A left leave, an actual 'lexit', if it were happening, would receive a very different response from me.

 

[sleaterkinney]

The Tories were and are in power. It would be a Tory Remain.

And?. Brexit is going to be shit whoever is in charge. More shit with the tories.

 

[danny la rouge]

And?. Brexit is going to be shit whoever is in charge. More shit with the tories.

So you’d apply double standards. Fine. But at least admit that’s what you’re doing.

 

[Pickman's model]

Doubles all round

 

[sleaterkinney]

So you’d apply double standards. Fine. But at least admit that’s what you’re doing.

The choice was between a Tory brexit and a Tory remain, (Corbyn was nowhere at that stage remember) and I choose the Tory remain. Not sure what you mean by double standards.

 

[mauvais]

The Tories were and are in power. It would be a Tory Remain.

Yes it would. I'm not sure what the issue is with this?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So you’d apply double standards. Fine. But at least admit that’s what you’re doing.

I've been of the relatively unpopular opinion on here right from the start of this debate that a tory govt in the EU is not the worst of all possible worlds. A tory govt outside the EU is even worse. I've not changed that opinion at all - events have simply strengthened it. There has been way too much crap on here that somehow if you oppose brexit in general, or this brexit in particular, or both, you're a cheerleader for the EU. That's bollocks.

 

[SpackleFrog]

A left leave, an actual 'lexit', if it were happening, would receive a very different response from me.

How could there be a "left leave" without people building support for it?

 

[danny la rouge]

Yes it would. I'm not sure what the issue is with this?

The issue is when people insist on painting Leave as the Tory outcome. Both outcomes were Tory outcomes.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

How could there be a "left leave" without people building support for it?

I don't know. It isn't happening and was never going to happen. I'm talking of parallel universes here, not this one.

 

[danny la rouge]

The choice was between a Tory brexit and a Tory remain, (Corbyn was nowhere at that stage remember) and I choose the Tory remain. Not sure what you mean by double standards.

See above.

 

[mauvais]

The issue is when people insist on painting Leave as the Tory outcome. Both outcomes were Tory outcomes.

Indeed. But I think this is natural description; the disruptive is attributed to its initiator more than the conservative is to its overseers. And I suspect that's not unreasonable; were there a change of government that for the sake of argument wished to bring about 'Lexit', would it be easier to carry out one's ambitions from a position of inheriting the norm or from inheriting the Tories' particular version of Brexit wreckage?

 

[danny la rouge]

Indeed. But I think this is natural description; the disruptive is attributed to its initiator more than the conservative is to its overseers. And I suspect that's not unreasonable; were there a change of government that for the sake of argument wished to bring about 'Lexit', would it be easier to carry out one's ambitions from a position of inheriting the norm or from inheriting the Tories' particular version of Brexit wreckage?

If I follow the clauses there correctly, you’re asking if I approve of the way the Tory government is conducting Brexit. Indeed I do not.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Indeed. But I think this is natural description; the disruptive is attributed to its initiator more than the conservative is to its overseers. And I suspect that's not unreasonable; were there a change of government that for the sake of argument wished to bring about 'Lexit', would it be easier to carry out one's ambitions from a position of inheriting the norm or from inheriting the Tories' particular version of Brexit wreckage?

Reminds me of the instructions of how to build a computer from scratch. First, create a universe...

A popular movement elected on a platform of policies that come into conflict with EU rules, followed by confrontation with the EU in which attempts to change those rules are defeated, followed by a referendum on leaving the EU in order to carry out those policies. That would be some form of 'lexit'.

 

[SpackleFrog]

I don't know. It isn't happening and was never going to happen. I'm talking of parallel universes here, not this one.

Bold predictions for the future there!

Ok let's try this. It's been very obvious a referendum would happen sooner or later over EU membership for the last few years; media and politicians love to rail against the EU and people basically hate it. Additionally it's been very obvious for the last few years that the EU is not a sustainable project and cannot hold itself together. Only a simpleton could have failed to notice these facts.

From the point of view of the left then there have been two options, for years:

1) Whenever the issue comes up tell people leaving the EU would be even worse. Polish that turd and sell it to people. Badly.

2) Accept material reality and build support for a left wing vision of Britain outside the EU.

Hence my point. You say you would feel differently about a left vision of Britain outside the EU. I'm saying Britain outside the EU is inevitable and therefore either the left can put forward a vision for that or the right will. At the moment from my perspective, you are surrendering to the right in the battle of ideas.

When I read your posts, I see no coherence to them. But lets say I'm wrong and you're right about everything. What does it matter? You won't change anything - you're not going to stop Brexit or the break up of the EU by saying how awful it will be afterwards.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Indeed. But I think this is natural description; the disruptive is attributed to its initiator more than the conservative is to its overseers. And I suspect that's not unreasonable; were there a change of government that for the sake of argument wished to bring about 'Lexit', would it be easier to carry out one's ambitions from a position of inheriting the norm or from inheriting the Tories' particular version of Brexit wreckage?

the Tories' particular version of Brexit wreckage

 

[mauvais]

If I follow the clauses there correctly, you’re asking if I approve of the way the Tory government is conducting Brexit. Indeed I do not.

Not asking that, no. If there's a non-rhetorical question in there then it's whether it's better for Lexit to begin from 'Tory Remain' or 'Tory Brexit', or indeed whether it matters. Me, I suspect the answer is Tory Remain in which case Tory Brexit is the more remarkable of the pair.

But if you were to say:

the Tories' particular version of Brexit wreckage

OK - why? Second guessing, I realise it might be founded entirely on their internal self-destruction but is the Brexit flavour of Tory implosion really different from the Remain one? Aren't they in similar shit as a party whichever way you slice it? If there's no good answer to that then we inevitably have to bring in all the external stuff and that suggests they're working towards some practical common good. What is it?

 

[SpackleFrog]

Not asking that, no. If there's a non-rhetorical question in there then it's whether it's better for Lexit to begin from 'Tory Remain' or 'Tory Brexit', or indeed whether it matters. Me, I suspect the answer is Tory Remain in which case Tory Brexit is the more remarkable of the pair.

But if you were to say:
OK - why? Second guessing, I realise it might be founded entirely on their internal self-destruction but is the Brexit flavour of Tory implosion really different from the Remain one? Aren't they in similar shit as a party whichever way you slice it? If there's no good answer to that then we inevitably have to bring in all the external stuff and that suggests they're working towards some practical common good. What is it?

I think the key difference is the Leave vote has completely paralysed and split the ruling class and their political representatives whereas a vote to Remain would have united them.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think the key difference is the Leave vote has completely paralysed and split the ruling class and their political representatives whereas a vote to Remain would have united them.

A remain vote would not have united the tory party. Far from it.