Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[mojo pixy]

This ''Brexit'' thing is and always was, since the early '90s at least, (unless we're re-writing history already) a tory / UKIP bandwagon that some lefties have jumped on because they think it's leading where they want to go. (There's a Lexit bandwagon too, but that's not moving, so people have jumped on UKIP's wagon because it is moving). They may be right - but the problem with jumping on a bandwagon is people forget to distinguish between the people pushing it, and the people just riding it to its destination.

 

[brogdale]

Neither Johnson or Fox are involved in negotiations any more...

True, but the disgraced former defence secretary has his work cut out just getting a foothold in negotiations to establish the UK's entry into WTO terms of trade.

 

[paolo]

Neither Johnson or Fox are involved in negotiations any more, so posting shit they came out with a year or more ago is hardly insightful or useful at this stage.

Do you have anything to contribute which is actually relevant?

Are you saying that the other sideline snipers - Davis, Rees Mogg et al are irrelevant?

Happy to go with that, and move on to the current Tory negotiation team.

But first, we should ignore Rees Mogg? Nothing to see there, no danger?

 

[butchersapron]

This ''Brexit'' thing is and always was, since the early '90s at least, (unless we're re-writing history already) a tory / UKIP bandwagon that some lefties have jumped on because they think it's leading where they want to go. (There's a Lexit bandwagon too, but that's not moving, so people have jumped on UKIP's wagon because it is moving). They may be right - but the problem with jumping on a bandwagon is people forget to distinguish between the people pushing it, and the people just riding it to its destination.

The left has been opposed to the EU (or previous bodies) for decades. There was criticisms of the project itself from the 60s onwards, initial membership was opposed and then leaving urged when we were finally given a vote on the top-down undemocratic decision on entry and leaving was written into previous labour party manifestos. It has been at the worst a large part of the left view and more commonly the majority view. Whilst the right were firmly in support of the joining, staying in and shaping the EU to their own tastes (which thatcher finally managed in 85-86 leading to the constitutional grounding of a form of democratically untouchable neoliberalism) - and still were right up until the referendum, and still are now.

If it's an anti-EU bandwagon it was set rolling and manned by the left for the overwhelming majority of its existence.

 

[paolo]

There’s no getting away from it.

It’s a Tory-shires led move.

It’s being run by the tories.

 

[Pickman's model]

There’s no getting away from it.

It’s a Tory-shires led move.

It’s being run by the tories.

your powers of observation are keen indeed

 

[brogdale]

The left has been opposed to the EU (or previous bodies) for decades. There was criticisms of the project itself from the 60s onwards, initial membership was opposed and then leaving urged when we were finally given a vote on the top-down undemocratic decision on entry and leaving was written into previous labour party manifestos. It has been at the worst a large part of the left view and more commonly the majority view. Whilst the right were firmly in support of the joining, staying in and shaping the EU to their own tastes (which thatcher finally managed in 85-86 leading to the constitutional grounding of a form of democratically untouchable neoliberalism) - and still were right up until the referendum, and still are now.

If it's an anti-EU bandwagon it was set rolling and manned by the left for the overwhelming majority of its existence.

True enough, as context, but the right have organised (officially) around anti-European positions since the early 1960's with the Anti Common Market League.

I assume paolo 's points relate to contemporary 'ownership' of the debate. Let's face it 'Lexit' positions were not front and centre through the campaign preceeding the referendum.

 

[andysays]

Are you saying that the other sideline snipers - Davis, Rees Mogg et al are irrelevant?

Happy to go with that, and move on to the current Tory negotiation team.

But first, we should ignore Rees Mogg? Nothing to see there, no danger?

No, I'm talking about your contributions to this thread, trotting out tired old shit that Johnson and Fox said over a year ago and which was widely mocked at the time, even by those of us who voted to Leave, that's what's irrelevant.

 

[mojo pixy]

The left has been opposed to the EU (or previous bodies) for decades. There was criticisms of the project itself from the 60s onwards, initial membership was opposed and then leaving urged when we were finally given a vote on the top-down undemocratic decision on entry and leaving was written into previous labour party manifestos. It has been at the worst a large part of the left view and more commonly the majority view. Whilst the right were firmly in support of the joining, staying in and shaping the EU to their own tastes (which thatcher finally managed in 85-86 leading to the constitutional grounding of a form of democratically untouchable neoliberalism) - and still were right up until the referendum, and still are now.

If it's an anti-EU bandwagon it was set rolling and manned by the left for the overwhelming majority of its existence.

That's not the EU departure road we're on though. I wish it were. The best we can manage at this stage is to appropriate what's happening and try to push it our way.

There's always been pressure to push us out, from both sides - the socialist left and the nationalist right - but it's clear which is in control now. The only question is, how do we reclaim this? I'm not seeing much of that, albeit I accept I'm chiefly watching the mainstream debate.

 

[Pickman's model]

Are you saying that the other sideline snipers - Davis, Rees Mogg et al are irrelevant?

Happy to go with that, and move on to the current Tory negotiation team.

But first, we should ignore Rees Mogg? Nothing to see there, no danger?

no, let's continue discussing the former tory negotiation team

 

[teqniq]

May’s Brexit disaster unreported by UK press: Britain BLOCKED from $1.7 Trillion in WTO projects

 

[brogdale]

No, I'm talking about your contributions to this thread, trotting out tired old shit that Johnson and Fox said over a year ago and which was widely mocked at the time, even by those of us who voted to Leave, that's what's irrelevant.

Yeah, but comparing what politicians promise with what they deliver is the most basic way in which we hold to account those that presume to govern us. No?

 

[paolo]

True enough, as context, but the right have organised (officially) around anti-European positions since the early 1960's with the Anti Common Market League.

I assume paolo 's points relate to contemporary 'ownership' of the debate. Let's face it 'Lexit' positions were not front and centre through the campaign preceeding the referendum.

(brogdale I'm not disagreeing with your post, more using it as a jump off.)

Socialism, generally, has an internationalist flavour. Reaching out and building bridges, unions, comrades.

Nationalism is, generally, is a right wing led thing. Protect what is mine.

 

[redsquirrel]

Boris Johnson mocked for saying Irish border like Camden and Westminster

Right so one Tory scumbag is saying shit, so?
You're the one arguing that people should ally with Tories, right wing Labour Party cunts and LibDems.

 

[butchersapron]

True enough, as context, but the right have organised (officially) around anti-European positions since the early 1960's with the Anti Common Market League.

I assume paolo 's points relate to contemporary 'ownership' of the debate. Let's face it 'Lexit' positions were not front and centre through the campaign preceeding the referendum.

That depends if you reduce - as most people on the remain side and some (not as many) on the leave side here have done - the whole debate and related issues down to the positions of various MPs or factions of parties positions mediated via other . That's what's both allowed and guaranteed these types 'ownership of the debate'.

The ACML league never achieved intellectual or political influence across the right comparbale to anti-EU positions on the left beyond a tiny elite and certainly never achieved the position of getting their positions writ into the tory party manifesto.

btw i wasn't replying to paulo. I am assuming his posts are a parody of some sort.

 

[Pickman's model]

May’s Brexit disaster unreported by UK press: Britain BLOCKED from $1.7 Trillion in WTO projects

grand to see the special relationship working so well too

 

[paolo]

You're the one arguing that people should ally with Tories

I'm a snidey Tory? Are you actually saying this?

WT actual Fuck

I'm going to namecheck my reasoned oppo, DotCommunist

He or she should be able to vouch for my stance. Grumbly remainer. Never, ever, Tory.

 

[brogdale]

That depends if you reduce - as most people on the remain side and some (not as many) on the leave side here have done - the whole debate and related issues down to the positions of various MPs or factions of parties positions mediated via other . That's what's both allowed and guaranteed these types 'ownership of the debate'.

The ACML league never achieved intellectual or political influence across the right comparbale to anti-EU positions on the left beyond a tiny elite and certainly never achieved the position of getting their positions writ into the tory party manifesto.

btw i wasn't replying to paulo. I am assuming his posts are a parody of some sort.

Agreed.
I think many would identify the 'height of Thatcherism'/run up to Maastricht (late 80's - early 90's) as the period in which anti-EEC/EU sentiment gained significant traction within the right/tories and there was 'ideological cross-over' on the issue.

e2a...when the right began to consistently identify the post-war legacy of 'consensus' concessions of the super-state as a potential barrier to some of their small-state, neoliberal agenda (particulalrly on the Labour supply side)

 

[redsquirrel]

I'm a snidey Tory? Are you actually saying this?

I'm not calling you a Tory I'm saying that the logic of your position is an alliance with pro-EU tories.
You specifically argued that

Now, leaving the EU is all consuming. It's more important than anything else. We don't even know why we're doing it anymore, because we still don't know what it means yet.

If this issue is "all consuming", if it is more important than anything else then logically you must be arguing for an alliance of "Remainers", regardless of what other politics those people have.

 

[andysays]

Yeah, but comparing what politicians promise with what they deliver is the most basic way in which we hold to account those that presume to govern us. No?

I agree with that, but neither of the articles paolo linked to relate to things which politicians have promised.

Did Johnson actually promise that there would be a border in Ireland the same as that between two London boroughs as a matter of official government policy, or was it just the random ramblings of an ill-informed buffoon?

 

[Pickman's model]

I agree with that, but neither of the articles paolo linked to relate to things which politicians have promised.

Did Johnson actually promise that there would be a border in Ireland the same as that between two London boroughs as a matter of official government policy, or was it just the random ramblings of an ill-informed buffoon?

yes

 

[brogdale]

I agree with that, but neither of the articles paolo linked to relate to things which politicians have promised.

Did Johnson actually promise that there would be a border in Ireland the same as that between two London boroughs as a matter of official government policy, or was it just the random ramblings of an ill-informed buffoon?

Both, I expect.
He deserves the piano wire, whatever.

 

[Winot]

Did Johnson actually promise that there would be a border in Ireland the same as that between two London boroughs as a matter of official government policy, or was it just the random ramblings of an ill-informed buffoon?

He has made a career out of eliding the two.

 

[Pickman's model]

Both, I expect.
He deserves the piano wire, whatever.

he deserves to play a part in the construction of the grytviken - buenos aires friendship bridge

 

[paolo]

I'm not calling you a Tory I'm saying that the logic of your position is an alliance with pro-EU tories.
You specifically argued that

If this issue is "all consuming", if it is more important than anything else then logically you must be arguing for an alliance of "Remainers", regardless of what other politics those people have.

Eek. You're extrapolating a previous comment a long way.

I'll try to explain why I said that.

It was a frustration that at the moment, it feels like we're focused on one thing. Not housing any more, nor the NHS, it's all about Brexit. (I think it's a waste of time, but I know that's not a unanimous view).

In a way I was trying to riff off your comment.

 

[Pickman's model]

In a way I was trying to riff off your comment.

(((paolo)))

have a pity like

 

[paolo]

big snip

Boris Johnson - The Foreign Secretary, as was.

Our representative to the world.

Saying he's just "a baffoon", for his statements in his official role, is "nothing to see here".

He's been recognised both on the left and the right, as an absolute nightmare for foreign relationships.

 

[Pickman's model]

Boris Johnson - The Foreign Secretary, as was.

Our representative to the world.

Saying he's just "a baffoon", for his statements in his official role, is "nothing to see here".

He's been recognised both on the left and the right, as an absolute nightmare for foreign relationships.

it's not a very good parody

 

[DotCommunist]

Costas Lapavitsas: Socialism starts at home

some good points in here re: internationalism. Not sure I like the title, but have a read

 

[butchersapron]

Pity about the interviewer.