Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[littlebabyjesus]

I agree with that, but neither of the articles paolo linked to relate to things which politicians have promised.

Did Johnson actually promise that there would be a border in Ireland the same as that between two London boroughs as a matter of official government policy, or was it just the random ramblings of an ill-informed buffoon?

There isn't an official government policy on the border in Ireland. Never has been. That's one of the very many problems with this rubbish, so the ramblings of an ill-informed buffoon who also happens to have been one of the most prominent advocates of brexit pre-vote (and we shouldn't underestimate the influence he had on tory voters to choose brexit - he is very popular among a certain kind of tory) and was Foreign Secretary of this government until very very recently are far from random. They're as close as anybody has got to a policy.

I also wouldn't underestimate the calculation in his buffoonery. As an example, he was deliberately misleading in the run-up to the vote over the £8 billion a year the UK gives to the EU. Dissappears 'god knows where' was his phrase, irrc. Well, god may very well know, but so too does anyone with fingers to type and access to google - EU spending is laid out in excruciating detail on easy-to-find pages on the internet. But Johnson knew that his intended audience didn't know where the money went and were not likely to be googling it any time soon, so he played on their ignorance. That's not accidental.

 

[Pickman's model]

There isn't an official government policy on the border in Ireland. Never has been. That's one of the very many problems with this rubbish, so the ramblings of an ill-informed buffoon who also happens to have been one of the most prominent advocates of brexit pre-vote (and we shouldn't underestimate the influence he had on tory voters to choose brexit - he is very popular among a certain kind of tory) and was Foreign Secretary of this government until very very recently are far from random. They're as close as anybody has got to a policy.

I also wouldn't underestimate the calculation in his buffoonery. As an example, he was deliberately misleading in the run-up to the vote over the £8 billion a year the UK gives to the EU. Dissappears 'god knows where' was his phrase, irrc. Well, god may very well know, but so too does anyone with fingers to type and access to google - EU spending is laid out in excruciating detail on easy-to-find pages on the internet. But Johnson knew that his audience didn't know where the money went and were not likely to be googling it any time soon, so he played on their ignorance. That's not accidental.

woah there

there's always been an official policy on the border - to keep it

all the london borough borders are adminstrative in the same polity - the border in ireland of course a mite different

 

[sleaterkinney]

Neither Johnson or Fox are involved in negotiations any more, so posting shit they came out with a year or more ago is hardly insightful or useful at this stage.

Do you have anything to contribute which is actually relevant?

Fox is, and the consultation on the trade deal with the US has just closed:

Consultation on trade negotiations with the United States - Department for International Trade - Citizen Space

• Boosting economic growth in the UK by encouraging more competition, investment and innovation.

It's what you voted for, right?

 

[redsquirrel]

It was a frustration that at the moment, it feels like we're focused on one thing. Not housing any more, nor the NHS, it's all about Brexit. (I think it's a waste of time, but I know that's not a unanimous view).

Then don't get stuck into the establishment narrative that it's all about Brexit, don't discuss things in terms of leavers and remainers, don't make Johnson "our" representative (as you do in a subsequent post), he's sure as hell not mine. For many, many people the UK leaving the UK isn't all encompassing so why buy the view of the wankers in parliament, media, etc that it is?

When you've been framing the debate this way, you can't complain when the logic of your position is taken to it's end point.

 

[paolo]

Then don't get stuck into the media narrative that it's all about Brexit, don't discuss things in terms of leavers and remainers, don't make Johnson "our" representative (as you do in a subsequent post), he's sure as hell not mine.

When you've been framing the debate this way, you can't complain when the logic of your position is taken to it's end point.

Ok, I’ll take that on the chin.

Do you have a representative?

 

[paolo]

OMG I’ve just re read.

Boris Johnson’s involvement in brexit is “media narrative”.

He didn’t want to be involved, but “the media” made him.

Really?

 

[redsquirrel]

OMG I’ve just re read.

Boris Johnson’s involvement in brexit is “media narrative”.

He didn’t want to be involved, but “the media” made him.

Really?

Well you need to re-read again.
The establishment and you made him "our" representative. EDIT: What is the "we" here?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Then don't get stuck into the establishment narrative that it's all about Brexit, don't discuss things in terms of leavers and remainers, don't make Johnson "our" representative (as you do in a subsequent post), he's sure as hell not mine. For many, many people the UK leaving the UK isn't all encompassing so why buy the view of the wankers in parliament, media, etc that it is?.

For many, many people, leaving the EU is the biggest political question and choice at this moment. Hence 700,000 on the streets of London. If you are friends or partners with an EU citizen here in the UK it is also a very very prominent question for your everyday life and wtf you are going to do if things get ugly. And it will remain the overriding obsession of the wankers in parliament, media etc for many months, probably years to come. At worst, there won't be a general election until 2022 and by then all the terms of brexit will be in place and the UK will either have just left or be coming to the end of a transition period. Whichever government comes in then it will be locked in to a series of international agreements and treaties. That does matter for all the other stuff we want to talk about and that is and will continue to be ignored in current mainstream debate and policy making. This is why 'lexit' is such a crazy joke. There is no lexit. Never has been a lexit. It is a tory brexit, a rexit, that we have on our hands.

 

[redsquirrel]

So "socialists" better throw away all their politics and clamber into bed with Soubry, Clarke, Umunna and the LibDems. Lovely.

Bremain for socialism!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So "socialists" better throw away all their politics and clamber into bed with Soubry, Clarke, Umunna and the LibDems. Lovely.

I didn't say that. Doesn't work that argument. Does brexit matter? Yes, it does. You are no more clambering into bed with rightwingers by opposing brexit than you are by supporting it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Bremain for socialism!

You get cross with other posters for twisting what you say into bullshit like this. Sort yourself out.

 

[SpackleFrog]

There’s no getting away from it.

It’s a Tory-shires led move.

It’s being run by the tories.

What control do you think the Tories have in this process?

 

[SpackleFrog]

(brogdale I'm not disagreeing with your post, more using it as a jump off.)

Socialism, generally, has an internationalist flavour. Reaching out and building bridges, unions, comrades.

Nationalism is, generally, is a right wing led thing. Protect what is mine.

You mean like this? Anti-austerity strikes sweep Europe | Reuters

 

[SpackleFrog]

I'm a snidey Tory? Are you actually saying this?

WT actual Fuck

I'm going to namecheck my reasoned oppo, DotCommunist

He or she should be able to vouch for my stance. Grumbly remainer. Never, ever, Tory.

That's not at all what they said.

 

[andysays]

...It's what you voted for, right?

Everyone who supports Brexit has to agree with every word that has come out of Boris Johnson's mouth, ever.

...And Liam Fox, and every other right wing bogie man who gets trotted out ad infinitum, obviously

 

[SpackleFrog]

For many, many people, leaving the EU is the biggest political question and choice at this moment. Hence 700,000 on the streets of London. If you are friends or partners with an EU citizen here in the UK it is also a very very prominent question for your everyday life and wtf you are going to do if things get ugly. And it will remain the overriding obsession of the wankers in parliament, media etc for many months, probably years to come. At worst, there won't be a general election until 2022 and by then all the terms of brexit will be in place and the UK will either have just left or be coming to the end of a transition period. Whichever government comes in then it will be locked in to a series of international agreements and treaties. That does matter for all the other stuff we want to talk about and that is and will continue to be ignored in current mainstream debate and policy making. This is why 'lexit' is such a crazy joke. There is no lexit. Never has been a lexit. It is a tory brexit, a rexit, that we have on our hands.

I think Lexit is a bloody daft term. But I only ever really saw it used by CPB and SWP types. Is 'lexit' relevant to the debate?

 

[paolo]

At some point I. This

What control do you think the Tories have in this process?

We’re leaving the EU.

The Tories are in power.

Have I missed something? Unicorns?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

.

So who do you support in this process? Whose 'vision' of brexit do you support? Who, in the negotiations, is putting forward things that you want to happen?

If the answer is 'nobody', you have a problem, no? You support a process in which you do not support those negotiating on behalf of 'your' side: you neither support their politics broadly nor their 'vision' of brexit narrowly.

For me, it matters that people like Fox are still very much involved in shaping this, and it is very relevant to quote what he says. He's still business secretary, remember. He's one of the half-wits entrusted with sorting out trade deals. What shape do you think those trade deals are likely to take with people like Fox negotiating them? What kinds of thing do people like Fox and other tories want from brexit? If you pay attention to what the long-standing tory brexit right wants, you will know that they don't want to leave the EU because it is too neoliberal. They're naked in their admiration of a US economic and social model. What direct consequences will this have for British workers?

What good do you see coming from this process? Please be specific.

 

[paolo]

I think Lexit is a bloody daft term. But I only ever really saw it used by CPB and SWP types. Is 'lexit' relevant to the debate?

Relevant here in our micro world. Bah.

For me, I try to respect it. None of us are making policy, we’re all venting at the end of day.

 

[Pickman's model]

We’re leaving the EU.

The Tories are in power.

Have I missed something? Unicorns?

you say that. but let's see what happens between now and 29/3/19

 

[redsquirrel]

I didn't say that. Doesn't work that argument. Does brexit matter? Yes, it does. You are no more clambering into bed with rightwingers by opposing brexit than you are by supporting it.

Yes you are. This whole conversation arose from paolo's insistence (and the insistence of those at the head of the march) that Brexit is "all consuming". And you've followed that insistence by repeatedly placing Remain as the starting point rather than socialism. I may not agree with socialists that come to the conclusion that a second vote is the best tactic but at least their reasoning is staring from the right point. You start from the position of Remain as the aim and attempt to shoehorn it into something you want to call socialism.

You get cross with other posters for twisting what you say into bullshit like this. Sort yourself out.

Back at you, you were always wet but at least you had some pretence of class politics. Now you're arguing for economics, for the EU, against democracy, for reducing politics to what the red and blue side of capital say it is.

 

[paolo]

For the record - I commented on a post that said Brexit was all consuming. I didn’t lead that. It was someone elses’s observation, that I bolstered, not lead.

 

[Pickman's model]

Back at you, you were always wet but at least you had some pretence of class politics. Now you're arguing for economics, for the EU, against democracy, for reducing politics to what the red and blue side of capital say it is.

no, he's always been an effete and ineffectual handwringing liberal of the worst sort

 

[mauvais]

If this issue is "all consuming", if it is more important than anything else then logically you must be arguing for an alliance of "Remainers", regardless of what other politics those people have.

This doesn't make sense, at least not in my interpretation of the argument. It's seen to be all-consuming in that the government, establishment and mainstream political powers apparently have no capacity to deal with anything but Brexit, to the exclusion of almost everything else that mattered prior to this whole debacle beginning. You can argue the focus is not shared by the public but unless the public are well served by other political movements I don't know where that gets you.

So what this prioritisation has to do with an alliance of Remainers, let alone a blind one, I've no idea. You could equally complain that it's all-consuming and that we should just take no-deal and move on to other things.

 

[paolo]

Can anybody help spacklfrog?

He or she wants to know how the tories are involved in the negotiations.

How, I know it’s a stretch, can anyone do some investigative reporting.

Just *how* are the tories talking to the EU?

 

[Pickman's model]

Can anybody help spacklfrog?

He or she wants to know how the tories are involved in the negotiations.

How, I know it’s a stretch, can anyone do some investigative reporting.

Just *how* are the tories talking to the EU?

slowly and loudly

 

[redsquirrel]

This doesn't make sense, at least not in my interpretation of the argument. It's seen to be all-consuming in that the government,

But paolo, and others, aren't just arguing that it's seen to be all consuming to the government, they are arguing that it is, and that it should be, all consuming. That it is an issue of such overriding importance that it takes precedence over other political concerns. And that does lead to the conclusion that people should ally with LibDems, Soubry, Blair, Verhofstadt etc in order to stop the UK leaving the EU.

EDIT: If socialists want to argue that the UK would be better remaining in the EU, or for a second referendum or even for Parliament to just reject leaving - ok I don't agree but that's life. But for gods sake make such arguments from a starting point of how such outcomes strengthen the working class, do it from the starting point that capital, the state and the EU are the enemy, do it from the starting point that we don't just go back to the same politics that, according to one poster, "just worked".

 

[SpackleFrog]

At some point I. This


We’re leaving the EU.

The Tories are in power.

Have I missed something? Unicorns?

Answer the question. The Tories are in government. What control are they able to exercise over the Brexit process?

 

[SpackleFrog]

So who do you support in this process? Whose 'vision' of brexit do you support? Who, in the negotiations, is putting forward things that you want to happen?

If the answer is 'nobody', you have a problem, no? You support a process in which you do not support those negotiating on behalf of 'your' side: you neither support their politics broadly nor their 'vision' of brexit narrowly.

For me, it matters that people like Fox are still very much involved in shaping this, and it is very relevant to quote what he says. He's still business secretary, remember. He's one of the half-wits entrusted with sorting out trade deals. What shape do you think those trade deals are likely to take with people like Fox negotiating them? What kinds of thing do people like Fox and other tories want from brexit? If you pay attention to what the long-standing tory brexit right wants, you will know that they don't want to leave the EU because it is too neoliberal. They're naked in their admiration of a US economic and social model. What direct consequences will this have for British workers?

What good do you see coming from this process? Please be specific.

Who do we support in any political process? Not the political elite on either side.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Relevant here in our micro world. Bah.

For me, I try to respect it. None of us are making policy, we’re all venting at the end of day.

No, I don't think it is - I don't know of anyone on this thread who has used the phrase Lexit in a positive way.