Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[Baronage-Phase]

The Horror... THE HORROR

The border between NI and the Republic was horrendous. It was nothing like a customs border. The British army searched people at gunpoint. Intimidation was rife. And what was really shit was that people travelled every day across that border for work and family. But if you had a Republican registration number you were treated as if you were a potential terrorist.
Stopped....searched....bit of intimidation....shoved around...made fun of for your name..... You'd be locked up at the drop of a hat if you dared say a word or ask why they were treating you like shit.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Arlene Foster was the one that saved the country from the idiot babies aka. Labour

And yet by propping up a May government she will quite likely bring ruin on her country, her party and the unionist cause. Hatred of Arlene Foster may one day become the strongest unifying force the protestants and catholics of the six counties have had since Danny Boy.

 

[butchersapron]

The border between NI and the Republic was horrendous. It was nothing like a customs border. The British army searched people at gunpoint. Intimidation was rife. And what was really shit was that people travelled every day across that border for work and family. But if you had a Republican registration number you were treated as if you were a potential terrorist.
Stopped....searched....bit of intimidation....shoved around...made fun of for your name..... You'd be locked up at the drop of a hat if you dared say a word or ask why they were treating you like shit.

What's a republican registration number?

 

[Baronage-Phase]

What's a republican registration number?

At the time...it was the registration number of a car registered in the Republic of Ireland.

 

[butchersapron]

So Ireland was always Ireland and all Irish are republicans. OK.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

So Ireland was always Ireland and all Irish are republicans. OK.

Yep.
Ireland will always be Ireland.
And no...Not all Irish are republicans.
Most people of all backgrounds here just want to get along peacefully.

I'll just say it again..anything other than an open border will damage what was the beginnings of a peaceful and relatively easy coexistence of people on the island of Ireland...people of all faiths and none living in both the area north of the border and south of that border.

Eta...And by border...I mean geographical border. There is no border in reality here now.

 

[butchersapron]

Yep.
Ireland will always be Ireland.
And no...Not all Irish are republicans.
Most people of all backgrounds here just want to get along peacefully.

I'll just say it again..anything other than an open border will damage what was the beginnings of a peaceful and relatively easy coexistence of people on the island of Ireland...people of all faiths and none living in both the area north of the border and south of that border.

So your mad series of replies to me - including the one where i invented a racist parody of your sort of thinking that explicitly quoted nazi policy and that you then approvingly took as a quote from the central person of your sort of political tradition - is where in this nice sounding guff?

 

[Pickman's model]

My preferred option is Norway or failing that a second referendum with the option of

pior auld norway

can you speak norwegian?

 

[danny la rouge]

Ireland will always be Ireland

It might sound obvious. But it does need to be interrogated.


In what way will “Ireland always be Ireland”? As a unified nation state? While I think that’s a reasonable goal now, it might not always be.

You also said “Ireland has always been Ireland”. Meaning what? There have been other kingdoms on the island, not always contiguous with its shoreline. Dal Riada is a case in point.

The idea that culture is (or should “naturally” be) homogenous within and contiguous with the borders of a state is a dangerous one.

Geography, statehood, culture. These are not synonyms.

 

[SpookyFrank]

What's a republican registration number?

A registration number from the Republic of Ireland, as is abundantly clear from context?

 

[Baronage-Phase]

So your mad series of replies to me - including the one where i invented a racist parody of your sort of thinking that explicitly quoted nazi policy and that you then approvingly took as a quote from the central person of your sort of political tradition - is where in this nice sounding guff?

Look....until you've lived here you'll never fully understand what has been done to the Irish.
You'll also never fully understand that the vast majority of people want to maintain peace.

You probably don't have much of an understanding of what people went through to get to this stage.

I do. Every family in this country whose grandparents grew up here and ended up fighting each other in a brutal civil war knows what can happen when a country is cut up and a piece of it is given to one dominant group who then dominate and control the people who were unfortunate enough to be in a minority. They ensured that this minority....from the same country...often neighbours and people whose ancestors had been neighbours and friends for years..generations.. .this minority was then told they couldn't do certain jobs...couldn't vote...sectarianism grew.

So...to answer again your question.Ireland has always been Ireland. And the Irish of all faiths colours creeds whatever got on. But the deliberate policy of division if the country into 6 counties in NI was crazy and it drove people apart.

As for Pearse? He was a dreamer...And flawed. But he is considered by many to be quite the hero and the Rising albeit very much a failure, did set things in motion that led to an eventual independence from the UK.
So...yes...as a nation celebrate our independence. Maybe if the Rising had not happened and we were now voting on Brexit as part of the UK...the vote would have been to remain in the EU.

Either way...you're only trying to score points and you've no vested interest or even passing interest in peace in Ireland. I would say that from your posting style and comments and your name that you quite possibly detest Irish people. You've certainly never once made me feel welcome here.

 

[butchersapron]

A registration number from the Republic of Ireland, as is abundantly clear from context?

Oh how cute, frank is doing ireland again. What sort of reg was Pat Finucane's car then?

 

[rekil]

Someone on here once claimed to be a descendent of Diarmuid MacMurrough. Was it you butchersapron?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Look....until you've lived here you'll never fully understand what has been done to the Irish.
You'll also never fully understand that the vast majority of people want to maintain peace.

You probably don't have much of an understanding of what people went through to get to this stage.

Butchers understands everything better than everyone. It's why we put up with him being such a godawful dickhead, apparently.

 

[butchersapron]

Look....until you've lived here you'll never fully understand what has been done to the Irish.
You'll also never fully understand that the vast majority of people want to maintain peace.

You probably don't have much of an understanding of what people went through to get to this stage.

I do. Every family in this country whose grandparents grew up here and ended up fighting each other in a brutal civil war knows what can happen when a country is cut up and a piece of it is given to one dominant group who then dominate and control the people who were unfortunate enough to be in a minority. They ensured that this minority....from the same country...often neighbours and people whose ancestors had been neighbours and friends for years..generations.. .this minority was then told they couldn't do certain jobs...couldn't vote...sectarianism grew.

So...to answer again your question.Ireland has always been Ireland. And the Irish of all faiths colours creeds whatever got on. But the deliberate policy of division if the country into 6 counties in NI was crazy and it drove people apart.

As for Pearce? He was a dreamer...And flawed. But he is considered to be quite the hero and the Rising albeit very much a failure, did set thongs in motion that led to an eventual independence from the UK.
So...yes...we celebrate our independence. May be if the Rising had not happened and we were now voting on Brexit as part of the UK...the vote would have been to remain.

Either way...you're only trying to score points and you've no vested interest or even passing interest in peace in Ireland. I would say that from your posting style and comments and your name that you quite possibly detest Irish people. You've certainly never once made me feel welcome here.

I'm the son of irish immigrants to england. I have had and still have family members involved in every aspect of republican struggle - from the OIRA to PIRA and the INLA, to the british army and to victims of all of these groups. I have lived in Ireland for extended periods and have had all of the above live with me in england. Your mythopoeic guff is really not suited to dealing with contemporary problems.

As for pearse? I invented an openly racist quote and didn't attribute it to anyone - you pinned it on him and approved. Yours is a dangerous unity.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

It might sound obvious. But it does need to be interrogated.


In what way will “Ireland always be Ireland”? As a unified nation state? While I think that’s a reasonable goal now, it might not always be.

You also said “Ireland has always been Ireland”. Meaning what? There have been other kingdoms on the island, not always contiguous with its shoreline. Dal Riada is a case in point.

The idea that culture is (or should “naturally” be) homogenous within and contiguous with the borders of a state is a dangerous one.

Geography, statehood, culture. These are not synonyms.

It's not even that though.

For generations people here got on with their neighbours. Religious differences did not cause problems. People just worked and tried to she out a decent living.
There was always a desire to be independent from England though. This desire was not limited to Catholics. There were many protestants who wanted Ireland to govern itself. And politically there was a chance that could have happened.

But civil war and sectarianism really drove people apart. And the British government really drove that. Troops coming over killing Irish people. The Black and Tans...Jesus...nobody will forget the horrors they committed.
The country was subjected to a divide and conquer policy. And resistance to that became habitual.

Roll on to the 70s and human rights marches and people being shot up by the British Army for marching for their rights .... And you see how so many people were disillusioned with government. Ignored.. And treated like dirt.

So for us to get over all that and reach a stage where we are living peacefully...that's something nobody should try to take from us. Especially not the British government.

 

[butchersapron]

Someone on here once claimed to be a descendent of Diarmuid MacMurrough. Was it you butchersapron?

I am. But you know...don't let pip hear

 

[butchersapron]

It's not even that though.

For generations people here got on with their neighbours. Religious differences did not cause problems. People just worked and tried to she out a decent living.
There was always a desire to be independent from England though. This desire was not limited to Catholics. There were many protestants who wanted Ireland to govern itself. And politically there was a chance that could have happened.

But civil war and sectarianism really drove people apart. And the British government really drove that. Troops coming over killing Irish people. The Black and Tans...Jesus...nobody will forget the horrors they committed.
The country was subjected to a divide and conquer policy. And resistance to that became habitual.

Roll on to the 70s and human rights marches and people being shot up by the British Army for marching for their rights .... And you see how so many people were disillusioned with government. Ignored.. And treated like dirt.

So for us to get over all that and reach a stage where we are living peacefully...that's something nobody should try to take from us. Especially not the British government.

Pic of rea here.

 

[Pickman's model]

So...to answer again your question.Ireland has always been Ireland. And the Irish of all faiths colours creeds whatever got on

I think you need to pluck up the big book of Irish history or perhaps Andrew Boyd's "holy war in belfast" as a corrective to your peculiar view of the past. Have you ever heard of the defenders or whiteboys? Do you know what happened to Quakers in Wexford in 1798?

 

[Baronage-Phase]

I think you need to pluck up the big book of Irish history or perhaps Andrew Boyd's "holy war in belfast" as a corrective to your peculiar view of the past. Have you ever heard of the defenders or whiteboys? Do you know what happened to Quakers in Wexford in 1798?

Centuries of fighting if you want to go through each and every battle.

Do you think any of it would have happened if England had not invaded?

 

[danny la rouge]

It's not even that though.

For generations people here got on with their neighbours. Religious differences did not cause problems. People just worked and tried to she out a decent living.
There was always a desire to be independent from England though. This desire was not limited to Catholics. There were many protestants who wanted Ireland to govern itself. And politically there was a chance that could have happened.

But civil war and sectarianism really drove people apart. And the British government really drove that. Troops coming over killing Irish people. The Black and Tans...Jesus...nobody will forget the horrors they committed.
The country was subjected to a divide and conquer policy. And resistance to that became habitual.

Roll on to the 70s and human rights marches and people being shot up by the British Army for marching for their rights .... And you see how so many people were disillusioned with government. Ignored.. And treated like dirt.

So for us to get over all that and reach a stage where we are living peacefully...that's something nobody should try to take from us. Especially not the British government.

That doesn’t address the point I made. It’s a bunch of different points.

 

[Pickman's model]

Centuries of fighting if you want to go through each and every battle.

Do you think any of it would have happened if England had not invaded?

Centuries of fighting really rather at odds with your Irish people of all creeds always got on.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

That doesn’t address the point I made. It’s a bunch of different points.

Ok. So what should Ireland be called then?
I don't know anymore. To me..Ireland was an island I live on that has some stability and has worked on peace between the 6 counties and the rest of the island. Everything that happens in the 6 counties has an impact on the 26 counties. So in that sense we are one.

To be honest...I think Ireland is heading for a resurgence of the troubles and that terrifies me.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Centuries of fighting really rather at odds with your Irish people of all creeds always got on.

Yeah probably
But I was comparing with what happened during the civil war. Maybe not clearly.

 

[danny la rouge]

Centuries of fighting if you want to go through each and every battle.

Do you think any of it would have happened if England had not invaded?

I think the question Pickmans is nudging you toward is when did this period occur:

“For generations people here got on with their neighbours. Religious differences did not cause problems. People just worked and tried to she out a decent living.”

Before Edward Bruce? Between Bruce and Henry VIII? Between Henry and Cromwell.

 

[butchersapron]

Ok. So what should Ireland be called then?
I don't know anymore. To me..Ireland was an island I live on that has some stability and has worked on peace between the 6 counties and the rest of the island. Everything that happens in the 6 counties has an impact on the 26 counties. So in that sense we are one.

To be honest...I think Ireland is heading for a resurgence of the troubles and that terrifies me.

Density

 

[butchersapron]

I think the question Pickmans is nudging you toward is when did this period occur:

“For generations people here got on with their neighbours. Religious differences did not cause problems. People just worked and tried to she out a decent living.”

Before Edward Bruce? Between Bruce and Henry VIII? Between Henry and Cromwell.

Before 8am - when the kids programs are on.

 

[Pickman's model]

Just yesterday I was reading about orangemen attacking catholics in the 1860s

 

[danny la rouge]

Ok. So what should Ireland be called then?

I think your issue here is that you are confusing several different concepts as one. That’s precisely the point I was making. Culture, polity, statehood, geography. And so on. These are all different things.

To be clear: I support the reunification of Ireland.

 

[butchersapron]

I think your issue here is that you are confusing several different concepts as one. That’s precisely the point I was making. Culture, polity, statehood, geography. And so on. These are all different things.

To be clear: I support the reunification of Ireland.

That makes you a proper irish.