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Is Brexit actually going to happen?

Will we have a brexit?


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Get whatever passport you need, but the suggestion you must renounce your nationality in order to do so can only make things worse for the non-European immigrants that want to live here, why the fuck should it be about renouncing anything?
Spain only allows dual citizenship with a limited number of countries and the UK isn't one of them, Germany only allows dual citizenship with other EU nations which currently includes the UK but won''t after Brexit
 
Spain only allows dual citizenship with a limited number of countries and the UK isn't one of them, Germany only allows dual citizenship with other EU nations which currently includes the UK but won''t after Brexit
That’s pretty clear from Faveldos posts , to me renouncing your nationality is a bit different from applying for citizenship, and it’s important that it’s also regarded as different since nobody should really be expected to renounce their nationality.
But feel free to facepalm away.
 
That’s pretty clear from Faveldos posts , to me renouncing your nationality is a bit different from applying for citizenship, and it’s important that it’s also regarded as different since nobody should really be expected to renounce their nationality.
But feel free to facepalm away.
He can claim to be British for as long as he wants but under Spanish law he can't have a spanish citizenship and/or a passport without giving up his British citizenship and passport. Spain isn't unique there are plenty of other countries than will a) not let you be a citizen of that country and b) will strip you of your original one if you apply for another country, The UK doesn't you can have as many others as you want and still be a UK citizen.
I have a mate whose wife has British, Australian and Filipino citizenship.
 
He can claim to be British for as long as he wants but under Spanish law he can't have a spanish citizenship and/or a passport without giving up his British citizenship and passport. Spain isn't unique there are plenty of other countries than will a) not let you be a citizen of that country and b) will strip you of your original one if you apply for another country, The UK doesn't you can have as many others as you want and still be a UK citizen.
I have a mate whose wife has British, Australian and Filipino citizenship.
I didn’t challenge your initial statement that Spain doesn’t allow dual citizenship for brits. Let’s leave it at that!
 
It may not be the case for many. It is the case for Britons in Spain.
Spain only allows dual citizenship with a limited number of countries and the UK isn't one of them, Germany only allows dual citizenship with other EU nations which currently includes the UK but won''t after Brexit
this is not true.
no country has the right to damand you relenquish your citizenship (or even hand over your original passport) when you apply citizenship with them, unless that country has a bilateral agreement with the country from where the applicant is from.
as far as i'm aware the UK has no such bilateral agreement. Therefore no country can demand you hand over your passport - and even if they did, you could just apply for a new UK passport and they could do fuck all about it. Passports and citizenship are 2 different things
As far as Germany not allowing dual citizenship with non EU nations goes- there
are tens of thousands of Germans with US citizenship - from parents who are/ were US services stationed in Germany or germans that were born in the US .
 
this is not true.
no country has the right to damand you relenquish your citizenship (or even hand over your original passport) when you apply citizenship with them, unless that country has a bilateral agreement with the country from where the applicant is from.
as far as i'm aware the UK has no such bilateral agreement. Therefore no country can demand you hand over your passport - and even if they did, you could just apply for a new UK passport and they could do fuck all about it. P

You need to do more than just turn in your passport to get citizenship in countries that ban dual nationality, you need to formally renounce your citizenship of other nations.

Looks like it is a pretty straightforward process, as long as you cough up £372.

Give up (renounce) British citizenship or nationality
 
You need to do more than just turn in your passport to get citizenship in countries that ban dual nationality, you need to formally renounce your citizenship of other nations.

Looks like it is a pretty straightforward process, as long as you cough up £372.

Give up (renounce) British citizenship or nationality
fair enough, on further research it seems spain is unique in demanding a renouncement (in cases where the applicant doesn't have spainish birth right). certainly not the case in Germany though.

i'd research the possibility of re appling afterwards though. i know this works with irish citizenship if you were born on the island
eta e.g here:
https://www.quora.com/How-easy-is-i...ter-renouncing-it-in-2007-what-is-the-process
 
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this is not true.
no country has the right to damand you relenquish your citizenship (or even hand over your original passport) when you apply citizenship with them, unless that country has a bilateral agreement with the country from where the applicant is from.
as far as i'm aware the UK has no such bilateral agreement. Therefore no country can demand you hand over your passport - and even if they did, you could just apply for a new UK passport and they could do fuck all about it. Passports and citizenship are 2 different things
As far as Germany not allowing dual citizenship with non EU nations goes- there
are tens of thousands of Germans with US citizenship - from parents who are/ were US services stationed in Germany or germans that were born in the US .
The (admittedly rather complex) rules on dual citizenship in Germany
Dual citizenship
Allowed under following circumstances:

  1. If the other citizenship is that of another EU country or of Switzerland. Non-EU and non-Swiss citizens must usually renounce their old citizenship if they want to become German citizens. There are exceptions made for citizens of countries that do not allow their citizens to renounce their citizenship (e.g., Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Costa Rica; the following jus-soli countries allow renunciation only if the citizenship was acquired involuntarily by birth there to non-citizen parents: Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Guatemala, Honduras, Mexico, Nicaragua, Uruguay), or if the renunciation process is too difficult, humiliating or expensive (e.g., Afghanistan, Algeria, Angola, Cuba, Eritrea, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Morocco, Nigeria, Syria, Thailand, Tunisia, USA), or, rarely, in individual cases if the renunciation of the old citizenship means enormous disadvantages for the concerned person.
  2. If a German citizen acquires a non-EU or non-Swiss citizenship with the permission ("Beibehaltungsgenehmigung (de)") of the German Government (e.g., existing relative ties or property in Germany or in the other country or if the occupation abroad requires domestic citizenship for execution). The voluntary acquisition of a non-EU or non-Swiss citizenship without permission usually means the automatic loss of the German citizenship (but see Point 4). The permission is not necessary if the other citizenship is of another EU country or of Switzerland or if dual citizenship was obtained at birth.
  3. If the person is a refugee and holds a refugee travel document during naturalization.
  4. If a child born to German parents acquires another citizenship at birth (e.g., based on place of birth [birth in jus-soli countries mostly of the Americas], or descent from one parent [one German parent and one foreign parent]).
  5. Children born on or after 1 January 2000 to non-German parents acquire German citizenship at birth if at least one parent has a permanent residence permit (and had this status for at least three years) and the parent was residing in Germany for at least eight years. The children must have lived in Germany for at least eight years or attended school for six years until their 21st birthday. Non-EU- and non-Swiss-citizen parents born and grown up abroad usually cannot have dual citizenship themselves (but see Point 1).
 
  1. If the other citizenship is that of another EU country or of Switzerland. Non-EU and non-Swiss citizens must usually renounce their old citizenship if they want to become German citizens. There are exceptions made for citizens of countries that do not allow their citizens to renounce their citizenship (e.g., Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Costa Rica; the following jus-soli countries allow renunciation only if the citizenship was acquired involuntarily by birth there to non-citizen parents: Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Guatemala, Honduras, Mexico, Nicaragua, Uruguay), or if the renunciation process is too difficult, humiliating or expensive (e.g., Afghanistan, Algeria, Angola, Cuba, Eritrea, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Morocco, Nigeria, Syria, Thailand, Tunisia, USA), or, rarely, in individual cases if the renunciation of the old citizenship means enormous disadvantages for the concerned person.
:confused:

humiliating?
 
That's an issue to take up with the Spanish authorities, surely?
In practical terms, no.
this is not true.
no country has the right to damand you relenquish your citizenship (or even hand over your original passport) when you apply citizenship with them, unless that country has a bilateral agreement with the country from where the applicant is from.
as far as i'm aware the UK has no such bilateral agreement. Therefore no country can demand you hand over your passport - and even if they did, you could just apply for a new UK passport and they could do fuck all about it. Passports and citizenship are 2 different things
As far as Germany not allowing dual citizenship with non EU nations goes- there
are tens of thousands of Germans with US citizenship - from parents who are/ were US services stationed in Germany or germans that were born in the US .
They won't give you the Spanish passport unless you give them the UK one. Standing in a Spanish police station shouting about bilateral agreements won't work.
 
Which cunts? British cunts or Spanish cunts?
British cunts, it costs £372 to renounce it, to add insult to injury if you change your mind (I presume you're British by birth?) you get one chance to ask for it back and that costs £1163
If you're not British-born it's a case of so long sucker.
 
Barring any substantial concessions from either side that make Chequers workable I think there will be great pressure to plump for Canada (which the EU said they will accept, and the ultras want), to avoid No Deal. I reckon the ultras will move against May soon or oblige her to hara kiri with a no-confidence vote on Chequers. A no confidence vote doesn't carry the threat to the rebels it once did, given the Fixed Terms Parliament Act (which allows 14 days to form a new government in event of no confidence vote, rather than immediate GE) - hard to see Canada being a splitting issue for either DUP or Tory MPs, who I'm sure would rather not risk their seats for an early GE. The main risks for them is they shoot their bolt with the 1922 Committee too soon and end up without one of their preferred candidates on the members' ballot (and potentially a soft Brexiter who has a year's immunity from challenge to negotiate something softer) - or that they get timed out into No Deal and the political shit from that lands on their heads.
 
In practical terms, no.

They won't give you the Spanish passport unless you give them the UK one. Standing in a Spanish police station shouting about bilateral agreements won't work.
So what, in practical terms, are you suggesting? It's clearly a pain for you and many others not to be able to work and pay taxes on one country, and then to claim benefits in another, but what does or should this mean in terms of whether Britain leaves the EU?
 
You can also apparently have your citizenship revoked for free, although it would involve becoming a fighter for ISIS.
That only applies if you've already got dual citizenship, you can't be left stateless even if you're the sort that no-one wants
 
So what, in practical terms, are you suggesting? It's clearly a pain for you and many others not to be able to work and pay taxes on one country, and then to claim benefits in another, but what does or should this mean in terms of whether Britain leaves the EU?

Okay. My personal situation is that without a good deal, I could lose the right to a Spanish pension, or possibly the unemployment benefits I get in the summer after my annual sacking (before my annual rehiring). So that is of concern to me. I'll be staying here and need life to be as stable as possible.

I found it difficult to make a decision in the referendum. I accept and agree with the left-wing arguments on here regarding the EU's inherently capitalist nature, its treatment of Greece, its lack of transparency and democracy. I also fear for a Britain with no EU influence, left to be stripped bare by regular periods of Conservative government. I have seen some EU policies and attitudes as a counterweight to the agenda of the Tories. My life has been transformed by easy freedom of movement too, so I am grateful for that.

With the pros and cons taken into account, I voted Remain - very unenthusiastically.

My contribution to the thread was fuelled by 3 cans of lager, and a feeling of frustration at the never-ending limbo of "What's going to happen to me?"

So, not the most profound post you'll read on the matter. However, there are plenty of us who have had 2 years of this shit now, and would like to know a bit more about our futures.
 
Barring any substantial concessions from either side that make Chequers workable I think there will be great pressure to plump for Canada (which the EU said they will accept, and the ultras want), to avoid No Deal. I reckon the ultras will move against May soon or oblige her to hara kiri with a no-confidence vote on Chequers. A no confidence vote doesn't carry the threat to the rebels it once did, given the Fixed Terms Parliament Act (which allows 14 days to form a new government in event of no confidence vote, rather than immediate GE) - hard to see Canada being a splitting issue for either DUP or Tory MPs, who I'm sure would rather not risk their seats for an early GE. The main risks for them is they shoot their bolt with the 1922 Committee too soon and end up without one of their preferred candidates on the members' ballot (and potentially a soft Brexiter who has a year's immunity from challenge to negotiate something softer) - or that they get timed out into No Deal and the political shit from that lands on their heads.

Canada FTA doesn’t solve RoI/NI border issue.

Logical outcome of Brexit is either border between RoI/NI or united Ireland.
 
Canada FTA doesn’t solve RoI/NI border issue.
True dat. But no deal will mean a border between RoI and NI too - if the EU is serious about maintaining the integrity of the single market, that is. So if it's a choice between the two, Canada looks more likely from the perspective of being more in everyone's interests - unless the EU think they can bounce the UK into an Irish Sea border (unlikely, due to the Parliamentary maths and statements by TM), or Norway (even more unlikely , given how hardcore the ultras' opposition to it is).
 
They won't give you the Spanish passport unless you give them the UK one. Standing in a Spanish police station shouting about bilateral agreements won't work.

I think at the moment this doesn't happen, but maybe it could.

Many months ago at a public meeting, I listened to the British Consul talking about this subject. She was very careful in what she said, because she definitely can't be seen to encourage anyone to break the law, but she made it very clear that:
  • British people (and people of most other nationalities) who get Spanish citizenship are obliged in Spanish law to give up their other nationality but...
  • In practice nothing is ever done to check that you have given up British (or whatever it may be) citizenship
  • You cannot lose British citizenship by accident. If you haven't successfully applied (and paid) to stop being British, you remain British
I was left with the very clear impression that quite a few Britons who have gained Spanish citizenship probably keep their British passports safely stored at the bottom of their sock drawer or wherever.

There are two obvious problems with this. Some people don't like breaking the law and might feel very uncomfortable taking an oath to abide by the Spanish constitution and law and then, as their first act as a Spanish citizen, deliberately breaking the law. The other problem is that the practice of not checking that the new citizen has given up their other citizenship could easily change.

I read somewhere - maybe on the parainmigrantes website, I'm not sure - that there had been a suggestion to tighten up the procedures on this. Even if this comes to nothing for the moment, it seems to me that if relations between the Spanish govt and the British govt worsen, as they could for various reasons (including Gibraltar), and the Spanish government gets wind of tens of thousands of Britanoguiris taking the piss by deliberately breaking the law in this way, they might do something about it.

There are grounds for optimism.

Sánchez spoke some time before becoming PM about ending what he saw a anomalies and anachronisms in Spanish law about nationality. He doesn't agree with one law for people from some countries and another for the rest. If the residency requirement were equalised (generally it's either two years or ten years depending on where you're from) and dual citizenship were generally accepted, instead of just being allowed with some other countries, things would be easier for many people. Some reforms were in PSOE's last election manifesto, I think, though I haven't got time to look that up now. Unfortunately, we can't expect any of these reforms soon, because it would be difficult or impossible to cobble together a parliamentary majority and these questions are not a very high priority for the government.

I am more optimistic about the government adopting a generous policy towards resident Britanoguiris in the event of a no-deal Brexit, but I do wish they would get on and announce (or decide and then announce) what their policy is. After all, there's little more than six months to go. I wish the ambassador, Simon Manley, and the British Embassy would make this their top priority now, instead of farting on about what a wonderful display the Red Arrows put on above Menorca!

Personally, I have no particular intention of applying for Spanish citizenship when I clock up 10 years in Spain. I am lucky enough to be Maltese and so I will continue to be an EU citizen. There are other British people in a similar situation, of course. There will be a lot more Irish Britons than Maltese Britons, but most British people don't have this option. Also, many people who have applied for Spanish citizenship have their applications stuck in an enormous backlog.

People are worried. A decent policy announcement from the Spanish government would be very welcome. Even something as non-specific but generous as the comments the then Foreign Minister, Alfonso Dastis, made late last year on the Andrew Marr Show would be a big step forward. The Sánchez government has chosen to say nothing about it, but unfortunately a no-deal Brexit is a definite risk.

In fact, it's the default outcome (if there's no deal and no cancellation of Brexit) and, since "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed", the provisional agreement over citizens' rights will not become a treaty.

I would prefer the agreement over citizens' rights to be 'ring-fenced' and made a treaty ASAP, but I have seen no indication that the EU agrees with that.
 
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True dat. But no deal will mean a border between RoI and NI too - if the EU is serious about maintaining the integrity of the single market, that is. So if it's a choice between the two, Canada looks more likely from the perspective of being more in everyone's interests - unless the EU think they can bounce the UK into an Irish Sea border (unlikely, due to the Parliamentary maths and statements by TM), or Norway (even more unlikely , given how hardcore the ultras' opposition to it is).

THe EU will only agree to a "canada" deal if NI is remains in the customs union - that means a sea border between NI and the rest of UK. DUP will never ever agree to that and it would be anathema to the british state generally becasue it would seriously undermines the union.

The EU will only accept a norway type deal - BINO essentaially - and the brexiteers wont accept that.

The opposition would vote down either proposal.

The only brexit deal that would get through the HofC is one where the UK gets free trade but limited obligations on free movement and EU law - and the EU is never going to accept that.

None of this is new - its the same proposals going back and forth with the same answers for two years. No Deal or Cancelling Brexit are the only logical and realistic outcomes.
 
Too long to quote
This basically fits in with my understanding of it. If no steps are taken at the granting of citizenship to ensure that you give up the old one (and giving it up before then is impossible, as you can't be a citizen of nowhere), you can basically keep the old one so long as you're not a moron and travel into your new home on your old passport. Even then you're unlikely to be caught out, but that's the only way they could ever find out about it. Countries don't share out their data on this sort of thing.
 
THe EU will only agree to a "canada" deal if NI is remains in the customs union - that means a sea border between NI and the rest of UK.
I'm not sure I buy that, if the alternative presented is No Deal - i.e. a hard border from day 1 in March next year, WTO tariffs and checks etc... (because no transition agreement would exist - what has been provisionally agreed is conditional on negotiating a terms of exit).

That would really fuck Ireland over economically - it's hard to see who would be pushing for that from the EU side, and I imagine the optics would be very damaging for them, as it would be seen to be their 'fault' - most people would surely think it total overreach to crash negotiations by demanding a customs border within the territory of another sovereign country, especially if the issue isn't about preserving the integrity of the single market.
 
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