Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[Sasaferrato]

"I'm a Tory and loved Thatcher, especially weakening the power of unions and privatising huge amounts of public assets, but isn't brexit awful"

"I vote Labour even though they're invested in selling off the social housing around here and part privatised services, but isn't brexit awful"

"I vote Lib Dem even though we colluded with the Tories in coalition to ram through austerity and fees, but isn't brexit awful"

Spare me.

You'll be voting for the Monster Raving Loonie candidate then?

 

[DotCommunist]

as pointed out many times on these boards, the NHS is taking a hammering whilst we're in the Eu anyway.

and that the eu didn't gift uk workers their rights.

 

[Whagwan]

Do not forget, neither Corbyn or McDonnell have even been a PPS, never mind held ministerial office.

Bit like Cameron then?

 

[Sasaferrato]

Bit like Cameron then?

Once elected, Blair's political ascent was rapid. He received his first front-bench appointment in 1984 as assistant Treasury spokesman.

In 1987, he stood for election to the Shadow Cabinet, receiving 71 votes.[44] When Kinnock resigned after a fourth consecutive Conservative victory in the 1992 general election, Blair became Shadow Home Secretary under John Smith.

In June 2003, Cameron was appointed a shadow minister in the Privy Council Office as a deputy to Eric Forth, then Shadow Leader of the House

He was appointed Opposition frontbench local government spokesman in 2004, before being promoted to the Shadow Cabinet that June as head of policy co-ordination.

So, both had extensive experience before becoming PM, Cameron also had advisory roles to the Chancellor and Home Secretary, before becoming an MP.

As I said, the gruesome twosome have no experience whatsoever.

 

[Sasaferrato]

and that the eu didn't gift uk workers their rights.

In a civilised country, workers should not have to fight for their rights.

 

[Kaka Tim]

In a civilised country, workers should not have to fight for their rights.

but that world does not exist.

 

[kabbes]

I was keen not to leave the EU, but the way they have acted since the vote has reversed that mindset. If we had another referendum, I’d vote leave this time round.

 

[DotCommunist]

i fear they wish to fist us so hard we can taste knuckles

 

[Whagwan]

I hardly call Cameron's two years before being elected Tory leader "extensive experience." If that is going to count you could the two years since Jezza got elected "extensive experience" for McDonnel.

 

[emanymton]

i fear they wish to fist us so hard we can taste knuckles

Now we know why you voted leave.

 

[Sasaferrato]

but that world does not exist.

Indeed, and more is the pity.

'The labourer is worthy of his reward.'.

 

[Silas Loom]

I was keen not to leave the EU, but the way they have acted since the vote has reversed that mindset. If we had another referendum, I’d vote leave this time round.

Goodness. What could a sane person, familiar with the fiscal and social risks of hard Brexit, object to so? Is it the sequencing of negotiations? The indivisibility of the freedoms? The interest in funding pension liabilities? What about the EU's position could possibly have come as a surprise?

 

[Sasaferrato]

I hardly call Cameron's two years before being elected Tory leader "extensive experience." If that is going to count you could the two years since Jezza got elected "extensive experience" for McDonnel.

The Conservatives' unexpected success in the 1992 election led Cameron to hit back at older party members who had criticised him and his colleagues, saying "whatever people say about us, we got the campaign right," and that they had listened to their campaign workers on the ground rather than the newspapers. He revealed he had led other members of the team across Smith Square to jeer at Transport House, the former Labour headquarters.[43]Cameron was rewarded with a promotion to Special Adviser to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Norman Lamont.[44]

After Lamont was sacked, Cameron remained at the Treasury for less than a month before being specifically recruited by Home Secretary Michael Howard. It was commented that he was still "very much in favour"[52] and it was later reported that many at the Treasury would have preferred Cameron to carry on.[53] At the beginning of September 1993, Cameron applied to go on Conservative Central Office's list of Prospective Parliamentary Candidates.[54]

Maths not your strong point?

 

[Raheem]

Once elected, Blair's political ascent was rapid. He received his first front-bench appointment in 1984 as assistant Treasury spokesman.

In 1987, he stood for election to the Shadow Cabinet, receiving 71 votes.[44] When Kinnock resigned after a fourth consecutive Conservative victory in the 1992 general election, Blair became Shadow Home Secretary under John Smith.

In June 2003, Cameron was appointed a shadow minister in the Privy Council Office as a deputy to Eric Forth, then Shadow Leader of the House

He was appointed Opposition frontbench local government spokesman in 2004, before being promoted to the Shadow Cabinet that June as head of policy co-ordination.

So, both had extensive experience before becoming PM, Cameron also had advisory roles to the Chancellor and Home Secretary, before becoming an MP.

As I said, the gruesome twosome have no experience whatsoever.

So the problem with Corbyn and McDonnell is that they've never served in the shadow cabinet?

 

[SpookyFrank]

A left wing Labour government will bankrupt the country, and destroy the remaining value of the currency. Borrow and spend, tax and spend. No thought to repayment. Of course, Corbyn's paymasters will be looking for preference for their members, to the detriment of everyone else.

Lucky the tories haven't been borrowing any money eh? I mean if they had been borrowing vastly more than any government in history, while investment in public services had nosedived, that would make you full of shit wouldn't it?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Lucky the tories haven't been borrowing any money eh? I mean if they had been borrowing vastly more than any government in history, while investment in public services had nosedived, that would make you full of shit wouldn't it?

Not just that. You can trace back over decades that the tories borrow more on average than Labour. It's one of the big lies of British politics that somehow still seems to hold traction in the face of clear evidence that it's bollocks.

 

[kabbes]

Goodness. What could a sane person, familiar with the fiscal and social risks of hard Brexit, object to so? Is it the sequencing of negotiations? The indivisibility of the freedoms? The interest in funding pension liabilities? What about the EU's position could possibly have come as a surprise?

They’ve been a right bunch o’cunts, innit

 

[Whagwan]

The Conservatives' unexpected success in the 1992 election led Cameron to hit back at older party members who had criticised him and his colleagues, saying "whatever people say about us, we got the campaign right," and that they had listened to their campaign workers on the ground rather than the newspapers. He revealed he had led other members of the team across Smith Square to jeer at Transport House, the former Labour headquarters.[43]Cameron was rewarded with a promotion to Special Adviser to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Norman Lamont.[44]

After Lamont was sacked, Cameron remained at the Treasury for less than a month before being specifically recruited by Home Secretary Michael Howard. It was commented that he was still "very much in favour"[52] and it was later reported that many at the Treasury would have preferred Cameron to carry on.[53] At the beginning of September 1993, Cameron applied to go on Conservative Central Office's list of Prospective Parliamentary Candidates.[54]

Maths not your strong point?

Cognition doesn't appear to be yours. My post was in direct response to yours in which you stated he became a shadow minister in 2003. You're just detailled his years as a party PR man, he wasn't even an MP until 97

If being a PR man before becoming an MP and then two years in the Shadow Cabinet counts as "extensive experience" then you seem to be ignoring McDonnels years in GLC, his years as an MP, and his Cameron matching 2 years in the Shadow Cabinet.

 

[DotCommunist]

Cognition doesn't appear to be yours. My post was in direct response to yours in which you stated he became a shadow minister in 2003. You're just detailled his years as a party PR man, he wasn't even an MP until 97

If being a PR man before becoming an MP and then two years in the Shadow Cabinet counts as "extensive experience" then you seem to be ignoring McDonnels years in GLC, his years as an MP, and his Cameron matching 2 years in the Shadow Cabinet.

and el corbvz 30 years (man and boy) as MP

 

[pocketscience]

All this doom-mongering is a tried and tested strategy straight out of the Tory/ Eu austerity toolbox.

Reading this thread, you see why Sanders lost the Democrat nomination.
Is the socialists/ working class left really so full of people lacking the courage to make a go for real change, or are they lacking the will for real change due to the fear of potentially upsetting the neo-liberal middle class order that they've become so invested in?

 

[Silas Loom]

Is the socialists/ working class left really so full of people lacking the courage to make a go for real change, or are they lacking the will for real change due to the fear of potentially upsetting the neo-liberal middle class order that they've become so invested in?

Another way of upsetting the neo-liberal middle-class order would be an epidemic of untreatable and fatal plague. It would create real change in social structures and break down many of the mechanisms by which capitalists effect control. It would lead to local decision-making and accountability at a community level. It would undoubtedly be a social leveller.

How do your arguments apply to Brexit and not to plague?

 

[pocketscience]

Another way of upsetting the neo-liberal middle-class order would be an epidemic of untreatable and fatal plague. It would create real change in social structures and break down many of the mechanisms by which capitalists effect control. It would lead to local decision-making and accountability at a community level. It would undoubtedly be a social leveller.

How do your arguments apply to Brexit and not to plague?

i notice you excluded my comments about doom-mongering when quoting my post...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

i notice you excluded my comments about doom-mongering when quoting my post...

But you seem to be trying to invalidate the pov that thinks brexit is going to make all kinds of things worse, including social inequality. There are some pretty solid reasons for believing that social inequality will worsen with a tory-led brexit (which is the only brexit we have atm). We know there are tories out there who seek a race to the bottom wrt tax and trade. We know it because the current brexit secretary laid it all out for us in a pamphlet he wrote last year. He is one of them, as is Fox. Johnson doesn't really believe in anything, but his track record as London mayor shows that he does not give a flying fuck about social inequality. So there you go - the three idiots entrusted with conducting the tory-led brexit. This is not socialists not daring to 'make a go of real change'.

 

[Kaka Tim]

All this doom-mongering is a tried and tested strategy straight out of the Tory/ Eu austerity toolbox.

Reading this thread, you see why Sanders lost the Democrat nomination.
Is the socialists/ working class left really so full of people lacking the courage to make a go for real change, or are they lacking the will for real change due to the fear of potentially upsetting the neo-liberal middle class order that they've become so invested in?

this is utter lefty bubble piss flaps. Brexit - especially hard brexit - will give us more austerity and more neo-liberalism. It will fuck the poorest, most deprived parts of the country and the poorest and most vulnerable people even harder than are being fucked now. Anyone who calls themselves a socialist and is pushing for hard brexit is a fucking idiot.
also - a brexit reverse and the accompanying humiliation will shatter the tories for a generation and may well explode the post imperial delusions of little englander nationalism. It will die with the baby boomers.

 

[gosub]

Goodness. What could a sane person, familiar with the fiscal and social risks of hard Brexit, object to so? Is it the sequencing of negotiations? The indivisibility of the freedoms? The interest in funding pension liabilities? What about the EU's position could possibly have come as a surprise?

The complete denial that its happening.... the offers of associate membership that were on the table anyway, the complete lack of effort to work out how and when they will restructure themselves...

 

[Raheem]

There are some pretty solid reasons for believing that social inequality will worsen with a tory-led brexit (which is the only brexit we have atm).

If we have a hard Brexit, this is only half the problem, because it will inevitably cause capital flight to some degree, and probably quite a significant degree. We might be better off with a Labour government in that scenario, but it doesn't fundamentally matter who is in charge. They are going to be negotiating with capital from a position of weakness and they won't have a practical choice about it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

also - a brexit reverse and the accompanying humiliation will shatter the tories for a generation and may well explode the post imperial delusions of little englander nationalism. It will die with the baby boomers.

This is an excellent point, and reason enough for any of us to want this particular project to come unstuck. It is also one of the reasons why Labour would be well-advised not to get too specific about brexit, except to say that it should be protecting worker rights and to push firmly that any kind of brexit is not acceptable - that it would be a dereliction of their duty as opposition to just vote through whatever. Labour would do well to remember that about two thirds of current labour voters voted remain, as did a large number of former labour voters in the SNP, a party whose support they will probably need if they ever get to form a govt. Out of those younger people energised to vote for Corbyn this year, a very very large majority of them oppose brexit.

People bang on about honouring the referendum result, but not holding the govt to account now for what it is doing now for fear of those who bang on about honouring the referendum result is an actual real threat to what little democracy we do have.

 

[Dr. Furface]

They’ve been a right bunch o’cunts, innit

Because they're sticking up for the best interests of the 27 member states, none of which wanted the UK to leave, still less expelled us from the club? The cunts are the ones that brought this fiasco about and now seem hell bent on making it as painful as possible for all concerned.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Not just that. You can trace back over decades that the tories borrow more on average than Labour. It's one of the big lies of British politics that somehow still seems to hold traction in the face of clear evidence that it's bollocks.

A plentiful supply of credulous, bitter old fuckers like Sasaferrato probably helps with this big-lie-spreading strategy.

 

[ruffneck23]

its almost like they are trying to punish the brexiters.. but oh no they wouldnt be so bitter would they ? ( ah this is the torys we are talking about )