Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[Rob Ray]

Sadly sensible was never an option.

 

[Winot]

It's looking more and more like a 'no deal' Brexit. Apparently the Government is running scared of a vote on a Customs Union because they might lose to the combined forces of Anna Soubry et al. and Labour.

Does anyone know if Labour can force a vote on this issue? It's looking like a good time to bring the Government down.

 

[NoXion]

The vote has been and gone and the brexiters won.
For that reason I feel no inclination to dance to your tune and provide you with 25 reasons why I voted remain.

You're the one who insists that the people who voted leave should be the ones who come up with all the details to make it work. Had Remain won, would you be insisting that Remainers provide detailed justifications for why they voted the way they did? I doubt it very much.

 

[andysays]

Time to get TM on the phone kabbes

 

[philosophical]

Generally "alt-right" is considered to encompass a fractured but specific wing of the far-right/fascist movement, mostly congregated around Breitbart, which coalesced with the aim of putting Donald Trump in power. It tends to be online-savvy and media oriented, distinct from the likes of the Tea Party but more or less closely aligned with racist patriot groups. Alt-left is just an attempt to take a scary-sounding term and apply it to people considered unacceptably left wing by the mainstream press.

And no, it's significantly more complicated than John Bull v Lexit, because people voted Leave for a massive spectrum of reasons. Hell my folks voted Leave because they thought, although it wouldn't win, that a close vote would screw over the Tories. They were of course half-right.



I'm not assuming the motivations of 17 million people though, I'm explaining the stated motivations over many years of people on here who have been in favour of Lexit, often backed in part or whole by the main purveyors of Lexit at the time of the referendum. The concerns over neoliberal capture of institutions and the evisceration of democratic reach for the masses over things like TTIP in particular were cited throughout the course of the Lexit campaign as its main motivation.



I actually voted Remain, because I didn't share the optimism of Lexit that the process of leaving could be shifted away from reactionary outcomes and felt it would likely lead to Britain going further down the rainy fascist island path, while getting bullied as an isolated minor player stuck between major superpowers.

But that's not to say I don't understand and sympathise with much of the critique - including that it's naive as hell to think that the EU is open to capture by a cross-EU progressive alliance. Bar some truly spectacular change in circumstance, the EU is going to continue to decline as both a democratic and a progressive entity, and tbh, if this question were asked again in ten years' time I might reckon that there was no more point in staying. A desire to get out of that bind and try to reassert popular progressive sovereignty in an independent country is perfectly rational and not in any way racist.

Thank you for this interesting post, and taking the trouble to write it.

Some of it is very informative.

I will have to question my assumption that the intention of every brexit voter is racist, even though I am mired in the sense that I believe the consequence of the vote being to give validation to racism, and I need to resolve this and try to express myself better. My thinking has been as simple as 'if you weren't racist then, you're part of racism now', and that is very hard to shake off.

This has been strengthened almost daily by the actions of the brexit victors in the distain shown for others, most particularly towards foreigners, and of course towards matters in Ireland in particular.

Others have said that the Irish solution is to have a United Ireland, and whilst I have not necessarily been against that, to me it would be the establishment of another nation state with all the risks that has. Here is where we diverge. You mention sovereignty, and an independent country and it is those concepts I have trouble with. Even to the point of questioning whether sovereignty and independence even exist at all, or that they have terms that have meaning for me. If Ireland is unified it wouldn't be independent in my view because I see all places as interdependent, not even as an aspiration but as a reality. If sovereignty is simply a term for groups or units of people agreeing on stuff for the common good then fine. I see it used as a term (perhaps because it has the word 'sovereign' in it) that relates to power nationalism, separation, and indeed race.

Anyway thank you for your post.

 

[philosophical]

You're the one who insists that the people who voted leave should be the ones who come up with all the details to make it work. Had Remain won, would you be insisting that Remainers provide detailed justifications for why they voted the way they did? I doubt it very much.

I don't have to because leave won.

 

[eatmorecheese]

I will have to question my assumption that the intention of every brexit voter is racist.

Well, that's a start, nice one

 

[agricola]

It's looking more and more like a 'no deal' Brexit. Apparently the Government is running scared of a vote on a Customs Union because they might lose to the combined forces of Anna Soubry et al. and Labour.

Does anyone know if Labour can force a vote on this issue? It's looking like a good time to bring the Government down.

They aren't running scared of a customs union, they just don't want to be the ones blamed by the pro-Brexit crowd when that is what they end up with (even though that (ie: a bespoke customs union) would be the best possible outcome from any talks).

 

[NoXion]

I don't have to because leave won.

The point is that either everybody has to, or nobody has to. Anything else is just self-serving bullshit.

 

[Rob Ray]

Generally speaking, throwing your hands up and saying "fuck this do what you want" is alright if it's just someone you know being a bit of a dick, as the consequences are mostly to them. It's less useful if you're also chained together.

 

[philosophical]

The point is that either everybody has to, or nobody has to. Anything else is just self-serving bullshit.

I fully accept everybody has to leave. I don't see your point.

 

[NoXion]

I fully accept everybody has to leave. I don't see your point.

You know full well what I meant. Brexit is far from a done deal, so you can't use that as a self-serving excuse for why Leavers should have to explain themselves while Remainers don't.

 

[philosophical]

You know full well what I meant. Brexit is far from a done deal, so you can't use that as a self-serving excuse for why Leavers should have to explain themselves while Remainers don't.

Thank you for assuming I am telepathic, but sorry to say I'm not.
Brexit is a done deal isn't it? Or do you mean what some describe as 'negotiations'? I believe leavers should explain their plans now. It is a bit rich if you're saying that remainers should also be telepathic and know the brexiters plans.
Brexit does not mean remainers have to sort it all out. That would be dumping responsibility on them for a situation they didn't want, very especially when brexiters are not even making a start.
I might be self serving, but don't intend to be brexiters serving.

 

[NoXion]

Brexit is a done deal isn't it?

If it was then this thread wouldn't exist.

I believe leavers should explain their plans now. It is a bit rich if you're saying that remainers should also be telepathic and know the brexiters plans.

I'm not saying that Remainers should know Leavers' plans, you fucking idiot. I'm saying that expecting people to justify Leave, without also expecting people to justify Remain, is one-sided bollocks.

Brexit does not mean remainers have to sort it all out.

I never said that. You're putting words in my mouth. Again.

That would be dumping responsibility on them for a situation they didn't want, very especially when brexiters are not even making a start.
I might be self serving, but don't intend to be brexiters serving.

Try actually paying attention to what people are saying to you.

 

[DexterTCN]

 

[philosophical]

If it was then this thread wouldn't exist.



I'm not saying that Remainers should know Leavers' plans, you fucking idiot. I'm saying that expecting people to justify Leave, without also expecting people to justify Remain, is one-sided bollocks.



I never said that. You're putting words in my mouth. Again.

A post ago you declared I 'knew full well' what you meant. So when I attempt to know (full well) by translating what you say to gain understanding I am putting words in your mouth.
Perhaps only a fucking idiot would want it both ways.



Try actually paying attention to what people are saying to you.

 

[NoXion]

A post ago you declared I 'knew full well' what you meant. So when I attempt to know (full well) by translating what you say to gain understanding I am putting words in your mouth
Perhaps only a fucking idiot would want it both ways.

Perhaps instead of quibbling over this bullshit, you could explain to us why you think ordinary citizens should be doing all the planning work that civil servants and politicians get paid to do.

 

[philosophical]

Perhaps instead of quibbling over this bullshit, you could explain to us why you think ordinary citizens should be doing all the planning work that civil servants and politicians get paid to do.

Because it is not possible for civil servants and politicians to do the planning work.
The ordinary citizens frequently say they knew what they were voting for, so now is their chance to supply the blueprint.
It is a bit like the ordinary citizens voting that proof should be found that ghosts exist, and then telling the politicians and civil servants to supply that proof.
Or perhaps the other analogy in this conundrum is to be found in the story 'The Emperors New Clothes', the clothes didn't exist, and solutions don't exist, but if the Emperor and people insist they do, they have to prove it.

 

[NoXion]

Because it is not possible for civil servants and politicians to do the planning work.
The ordinary citizens frequently say they knew what they were voting for, so now is their chance to supply the blueprint.
It is a bit like the ordinary citizens voting that proof should be found that ghosts exist, and then telling the politicians and civil servants to supply that proof.
Or perhaps the other analogy in this conundrum is to be found in the story 'The Emperors New Clothes', the clothes didn't exist, and solutions don't exist, but if the Emperor and people insist they do, they have to prove it.

Why is it not possible? Most of them have got a fancy education, experience in civil matters, and so on. Even if they don't have those things, then they've still got the resources of the government to draw on, the rest of us don't. If they can't do it, how the fuck do you expect anyone else to be able to do it?

People knew what they were voting for, whether they voted Leave or Remain. I dunno about you, but I didn't see a section on the ballot paper where I could pencil in my plans about how to proceed. I just saw a simple choice, Leave or Remain.

I don't know why you're mentioning ghosts. Or do you really think that countries should have no choice but to stay within the EU once they join up?

 

[philosophical]

Why is it not possible? Most of them have got a fancy education, experience in civil matters, and so on. Even if they don't have those things, then they've still got the resources of the government to draw on, the rest of us don't. If they can't do it, how the fuck do you expect anyone else to be able to do it?

People knew what they were voting for, whether they voted Leave or Remain. I dunno about you, but I didn't see a section on the ballot paper where I could pencil in my plans about how to proceed. I just saw a simple choice, Leave or Remain.

I don't know why you're mentioning ghosts. Or do you really think that countries should have no choice but to stay within the EU once they join up?

All the fancy education in the world, and all the resources have led us to nowhere so far. Given all the time the educated, the Politicians and the civil servants have had they have come up with nothing, so that is why I think it isn't possible.
If as you say people knew what they were voting for how come it isn't going along swimmingly, perhaps they didn't know but were pretending.
I don't think countries should have no choice whether to stay or remain but they should have a plan.
If somebody says 'I'm divorcing you but moving to Australia, but nevertheless I expect you to drop the kids off at my place every weekend', the reasonable response might well be 'have you thought this through?'
Brexit has won, the EU assumes the UK has thought it through, and have been reasonably asking the UK for answers, but the UK doesn't seem to have any, and it isn't because the EU are asking the wrong questions.

 

[NoXion]

All the fancy education in the world, and all the resources have led us to nowhere so far. Given all the time the educated, the Politicians and the civil servants have had they have come up with nothing, so that is why I think it isn't possible.
If as you say people knew what they were voting for how come it isn't going along swimmingly, perhaps they didn't know but were pretending.
I don't think countries should have no choice whether to stay or remain but they should have a plan.
If somebody says 'I'm divorcing you but moving to Australia, but nevertheless I expect you to drop the kids off at my place every weekend', the reasonable response might well be 'have you thought this through?'
Brexit has won, the EU assumes the UK has thought it through, and have been reasonably asking the UK for answers, but the UK doesn't seem to have any, and it isn't because the EU are asking the wrong questions.

So the politicians and civil servants fucked it up, and you think the voters are to blame for that?

 

[xenon]

I suppose the Irish Times is much more up close and personal to the issue, than the arms length brexiters who are trying to blag it.
The 17 million people who voted to leave the EU won.
They have had a long time now to come up with a solution but haven't, and it seems to me that there is general distain and contempt towards those asking them to outline their solution, probably because the questions are too difficult to answer.

You voted remain. Why do you hate the Greeks? Where’s your plan?

 

[DexterTCN]

You voted remain. Why do you hate the Greeks? Where’s your plan?

 

[philosophical]

So the politicians and civil servants fucked it up, and you think the voters are to blame for that?

You assume the politicians and civil servants messed it up, what if they tried and the 'will of the people' was impossible to do? Isn't that the moment to ask the people to do it themselves?
There is an old tale that when Laurence Olivier was filming Henry V in Ireland, he told an Irish extra that the next shot required the extra to hide in a tree, and jump on an armoured knight galloping past on his horse, and bring him to the ground. The Irish extra said to Laurence 'could you just show me how it's done?'.

 

[xenon]

I suppose the Irish Times is much more up close and personal to the issue, than the arms length brexiters who are trying to blag it.
The 17 million people who voted to leave the EU won.
They have had a long time now to come up with a solution but haven't, and it seems to me that there is general distain and contempt towards those asking them to outline their solution, probably because the questions are too difficult to answer.

Why do you like Turkey’s approach to refugees so much? You voted for it.

 

[philosophical]

You voted remain. Why do you hate the Greeks? Where’s your plan?

I don't need a plan, I lost.

 

[philosophical]

Why do you like Turkey’s approach to refugees so much? You voted for it.

I wasn't aware that Turkey was in the EU.

 

[NoXion]

You assume the politicians and civil servants messed it up, what if they tried and the 'will of the people' was impossible to do? Isn't that the moment to ask the people to do it themselves?
There is an old tale that when Laurence Olivier was filming Henry V in Ireland, he told an Irish extra that the next shot required the extra to hide in a tree, and jump on an armoured knight galloping past on his horse, and bring him to the ground. The Irish extra said to Laurence 'could you just show me how it's done?'.

I'm not assuming, they didn't even write shit down.

 

[xenon]

Fuck this. You’re incapable of honest debate @Philosophicall. Reading or comprehension about anything re hunan motives.. Waste of bits.

 

[philosophical]

I'm not assuming, they didn't even write shit down.

Because they were worried the freedom of information act would winkle it out of them? I have my doubts about that regarding civil servants.
Or was it because there was nothing for the Politicians to tell the civil servants to actually write down (possible) or nothing good to write down (probable)?
If we saw what they wrote down maybe it would be idle doodling anyway. I don't see not writing things down as messing up, but more a sort of paralysis.