Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[Pickman's model]

I agree with you. Brexiters did not cause the establishment of the six counties and the death and pain it has caused. However the combination of both countries being in the EU, and the Good Friday Agreement has reduced the death and pain considerably.
Brexiters have now put the recent years of peace and harmony and efforts at collaboration at risk.

the uk and roi joined the eec/eu in 1973. just as you can't set the killings in the troubles at the eu's door you can't set the decline in deaths there either.

 

[Teaboy]

'Ours'?
Thanks for the compliment though.

Yes, in the way that I didn't vote for the tories but May is still my prime minister. That's the thing about democracy sometimes (all of the time) you just have to suck it up and make the best of what you end up with. Unless of course you are planning personally on ceding from the UK.

 

[philosophical]

the uk and roi joined the eec/eu in 1973. just as you can't set the killings in the troubles at the eu's door you can't set the decline in deaths there either.

I said it was a combination. For many both countries being outwardly facing towards the EU softened the notion that was forever to be in thrall to the UK, which helped to remove one part of the justification for conflict, then there was reform to the corrupt electoral features that were then inherent in Northern Ireland, then their was the Good Friday Agreement.
At my age there have been several life dominating features involving conflict and threat. The results of the second world war were to be seen everywhere as a child, I was born under rationing, we had to live in a prefab, play on what we called bomb sites, our teachers were frequently limbless, or damaged in other ways having fought in the war like my father did.
Another threat came from the cold war and threat of nuclear Armageddon, and from my teens to my forties everyday life was lived in the shadow of Irish related terrorism.
At least two of those features of my life has led me to welcome the hope signalled by the existence of the EU, and pretty well established peace in Ireland.
You may wish to dismiss the relevance of my life experience, but I see the combination of factors leading to a decline in deaths in Ireland have been very much helped by the existence of the EU.

 

[philosophical]

Yes, in the way that I didn't vote for the tories but May is still my prime minister. That's the thing about democracy sometimes (all of the time) you just have to suck it up and make the best of what you end up with. Unless of course you are planning personally on ceding from the UK.

You can vote May out next time. I see brexit as damage forever.
I certainly wouldn't mind ceding from the UK, but an accident of birth places me here.

 

[Pickman's model]

I said it was a combination. For many both countries being outwardly facing towards the EU softened the notion that was forever to be in thrall to the UK, which helped to remove one part of the justification for conflict, then there was reform to the corrupt electoral features that were then inherent in Northern Ireland, then their was the Good Friday Agreement.
At my age there have been several life dominating features involving conflict and threat. The results of the second world war were to be seen everywhere as a child, I was born under rationing, we had to live in a prefab, play on what we called bomb sites, our teachers were frequently limbless, or damaged in other ways having fought in the war like my father did.
Another threat came from the cold war and threat of nuclear Armageddon, and from my teens to my forties everyday life was lived in the shadow of Irish related terrorism.
At least two of those features of my life has led me to welcome the hope signalled by the existence of the EU, and pretty well established peace in Ireland.
You may wish to dismiss the relevance of my life experience, but I see the combination of factors leading to a decline in deaths in Ireland have been very much helped by the existence of the EU.

the results of the second world war are still to be seen all around. as are the results of slavery and the abolition thereof.

 

[philosophical]

the results of the second world war are still to be seen all around. as are the results of slavery and the abolition thereof.

I completely agree, but it is worth trying to learn lessons from those terrible things, and trying to make things better, and trying to head off a repeat of such things, isn't it?

 

[Rob Ray]

I certainly wouldn't mind ceding from the UK, but an accident of birth places me here.

So you're intending to sit around sulking while Brexit happens,ignoring its impacts on you and everyone around you (other than to complain that everyone's racist) because you didn't like the outcome of a vote? How constructive.

 

[Teaboy]

You can vote May out next time. I see brexit as damage forever.
I certainly wouldn't mind ceding from the UK, but an accident of birth places me here.

You can vote lib dem next time, they'd have us back in the EU in a Parliament I reckon. Also if you have a UK and Irish passport you can go and live virtually anywhere in Europe, which is a dam lot better than most can - just ask those poor souls drowning in the med.

 

[philosophical]

So you're intending to sit around sulking while Brexit happens,ignoring its impacts on you and everyone around you (other than to complain that everyone's racist) because you didn't like the outcome of a vote? How constructive.

You're absolutely right. I certainly don't feel the desire, the need or the requirement to be constructive. I bang on and on about the Irish border because I am not ignoring the impact of brexit.
Because the vote is forever I hate it's outcome, so you may describe my position as sulking if you like. I see it differently.

 

[philosophical]

You can vote lib dem next time, they'd have us back in the EU in a Parliament I reckon. Also if you have a UK and Irish passport you can go and live virtually anywhere in Europe, which is a dam lot better than most can - just ask those poor souls drowning in the med.

I won't vote libdem because they have a capitalist view of Education.
When you say I can live anywhere in the EU by dint of my passport, is that simply a statement of fact, or a round about way of saying 'if you don't like it leave'?
The poor desperate and exploited drowning souls in the med are a humanitarian crisis for all of us aren't they? In or out of the EU, in Europe or anywhere else on the planet?

 

[Rob Ray]

you may describe my position as sulking if you like. I see it differently.

Whinging and not constructively contributing is indistinguishable from sulking afaics, so I'm not sure it matters how you'd see it. You've made your view that Brexit is Bad clear, what is to be gained from endlessly repeating yourself? What are you hoping to achieve here?

Are you looking for Brexiters to have a Damascene conversion and suddenly cry out "oh my, you were right all along, I am a racist"? Do you think that's likely, especially here where most of the pro Leave camp have consistently explained they didn't vote that way because of immigration issues in the first place? Are you hoping for people to fall on their knees and say "oh no, Brexit is going wrong, save me philosophical" so you can laugh and feel all warm and fuzzy about being correct? What is this about?

 

[andysays]

the results of the second world war are still to be seen all around. as are the results of slavery and the abolition thereof.

All those are clearly the fault of Brexit voters too, as is the fact that Spurs were beaten by Juventus last night.

Brexit voters are to blame for EVERYTHING bad ever.

 

[Pickman's model]

All those are clearly the fault of Brexit voters too, as is the fact that Spurs were beaten by Juventus last night.

Brexit voters are to blame for EVERYTHING bad ever.

spurs getting beaten is not bad

 

[Teaboy]

I won't vote libdem because they have a capitalist view of Education.

Hang on, I thought Brexit was vitally important? Are you saying you weigh up various factors when deciding to vote and then make a decesion based on what you think is most important? Seems an odd way to go about things?

When you say I can live anywhere in the EU by din't of my passport, is that simply a statement of fact, or a round about way of saying 'if you don't like it leave'?

Simply a statement of fact. It is as an accident of birth where you are born and grow up but in theory at least you can go and live anywhere you wish in Europe. You said you wanted to cede.

 

[Badgers]

Are these EU voting stats correct?

EU facts behind the claims: UK influence

 

[philosophical]

Whinging and not constructively contributing is indistinguishable from sulking afaics, so I'm not sure it matters how you'd see it. You've made your view that Brexit is Bad clear, what is to be gained from endlessly repeating yourself? What are you hoping to achieve here?

Are you looking for Brexiters to have a Damascene conversion and suddenly cry out "oh my, you were right all along, I am a racist"? Do you think that's likely, especially here where most of the pro Leave camp have consistently explained they didn't vote that way because of immigration issues in the first place? Are you hoping for people to fall on their knees and say "oh no, Brexit is going wrong, save me philosophical" so you can laugh and feel all warm and fuzzy about being correct? What is this about?

I suppose it is about pressing the pro leave camp on what their next step is going to be.

I am not seeking for anybody to say I am correct, because the vote is now over. It is about wandering into a left wing site and being taken aback that there are those here who voted brexit, but nevertheless accepting that has happened, and asking those people what the next step will be. My confusion is about whether two political extremes have suddenly snapped closed the circle like a bracelet, where the politics of the alt left and alt right are now in alliance.

 

[philosophical]

Hang on, I thought Brexit was vitally important? Are you saying you weigh up various factors when deciding to vote and then make a decesion based on what you think is most important? Seems an odd way to go about things?

The decision regarding Liberals was about deciding how NOT to vote, they are liars. Anyway they shared a government with the Tories, who would want to vote for them however glossy their politics may seem?



Simply a statement of fact. It is as an accident of birth where you are born and grow up but in theory at least you can go and live anywhere you wish in Europe. You said you wanted to cede.

Thank you for clearing that up, for a moment I thought it was a riff on 'piss off out of it'. I don't see living elsewhere as the same as ceding. I would like to cede from the UK because there are aspects of this country that are detestable, but other forces keep me here so I am obliged to play the hand I'm dealt, isn't that true for most people in terms of location?

 

[Pickman's model]

Thank you for clearing that up, for a moment I thought it was a riff on 'piss off out of it'. I don't see living elsewhere as the same as ceding. I would like to cede from the UK because there are aspects of this country that are detestable, but other forces keep me here so I am obliged to play the hand I'm dealt, isn't that true for most people in terms of location?

secede

 

[Rob Ray]

My confusion is about whether two political extremes have suddenly snapped closed the circle like a bracelet, where the politics of the alt left and alt right are now in alliance.

Alright so short answer to this, no. The "alt-left" is largely a phantasm made up by the tabloids in the any case (the closest political tendency I could think of would be the younger set of tankies around stuff like Red London), but Lexit voters have totally different motivations in comparison to John Bull rightists, [edit-->] eg. concerns with the capture of the overwhelming part of the EU's institutions by neoliberal interests and associated fallout (such as Viking-Laval, or enforced privatisation policies), or a forthright analysis of the way the EU acts to enable what amounts to an abusive relationships between powerful northern European states and weaker southern ones (most notably Greece).

Some even have specifically anti-racist reasons linked to the militarisation and attempted consolidation of "Fortress Europe", which Butchers alluded to when he pulled up that piece about the borders between Spain and Africa.

 

[Pickman's model]

Alright so short answer to this, no. The "alt-left" is largely a phantasm made up by the tabloids in the any case (the closest political tendency I could think of would be the younger set of tankies around stuff like Red London), but Lexit voters have totally different motivations in comparison to John Bull rightists.

it's gone over yer man's head

 

[SpookyFrank]

All those are clearly the fault of Brexit voters too, as is the fact that Spurs were beaten by Juventus last night.

Brexit voters are to blame for EVERYTHING bad ever.

I dunno, spurs have been a joke since loooooong before the brexit vote.

 

[Teaboy]

secede

Blimey, you're right. I've been using the wrong cede for a while now.

 

[Pickman's model]

Blimey, you're right. I've been using the wrong cede for a while now.

now i've planted the right seed in your mind

 

[Pickman's model]

I dunno, spurs have been a joke since loooooong before the brexit vote.

little sir echo

 

[philosophical]

secede

Yes you're right.

 

[philosophical]

it's gone over yer man's head

No it hasn't. It provides food for thought.

 

[philosophical]

Alright so short answer to this, no. The "alt-left" is largely a phantasm made up by the tabloids in the any case (the closest political tendency I could think of would be the younger set of tankies around stuff like Red London), but Lexit voters have totally different motivations in comparison to John Bull rightists, [edit-->] eg. concerns with the capture of the overwhelming part of the EU's institutions by neoliberal interests and associated fallout (such as Viking-Laval, or enforced privatisation policies), or a forthright analysis of the way the EU acts to enable what amounts to an abusive relationships between powerful northern European states and weaker southern ones (most notably Greece).

Some even have specifically anti-racist reasons linked to the militarisation and attempted consolidation of "Fortress Europe", which Butchers alluded to when he pulled up that piece about the borders between Spain and Africa.

OK, the term alt left is equally as meaningless as alt right, and can be translated into John Bullers and Lexiters?
Incidentally you attribute what you believe to be the motivation of Lexit voters, but my attributions has been seen as invalid by some here, not because they have pointed out I am wrong for a reason, but because I couldn't know the range of reasons why 17 or so million people voted brexit. In this sense we are the same in assuming stuff about voter motivation.
I am not unaware that there are issues within the EU as an institution, but am astonished that the reaction of Lexiters by your interpretation is to bail out and we then get a frying pan/fire interface. There are many groups in many countries in the EU that share concerns regarding the EU as a structure, I don't understand why the Lexiters wouldn't want to collaborate with such groups if they have common cause. Online technology will always be a mystery to me, but I imagine there would be ways to collaborate using it and other means. It is the notion perhaps initiated by brexiters, that the EU would be better reformed by reducing it to bite sized nation states, changing them, and then hope that would have a domino effect throughout Europe that very much troubles me.
To me that approach is fraught with danger but that is where lexiters and brexiters have landed the UK. Now a nation state of sorts, maybe with an 'independent Wales, and Scotland, and parcels of Ireland to come, maybe with an independent 'north' or London. How small does it have to be before that direction of travel stops?
I also see the danger that smaller groupings are more open to exploitation by the powerful, more quickly, more easily and more permanently. Yes of course there is exploitation in the greater EU, but instead of resisting that rushing to the arms of the permanent ruling class that has always held sway in the UK seems to me to invite shackles, not move towards shaking them off.

 

[philosophical]

 

[Rob Ray]

OK, the term alt left is equally as meaningless as alt right, and can be translated into John Bullers and Lexiters?

Generally "alt-right" is considered to encompass a fractured but specific wing of the far-right/fascist movement, mostly congregated around Breitbart, which coalesced with the aim of putting Donald Trump in power. It tends to be online-savvy and media oriented, distinct from the likes of the Tea Party but more or less closely aligned with racist patriot groups. Alt-left is just an attempt to take a scary-sounding term and apply it to people considered unacceptably left wing by the mainstream press.

And no, it's significantly more complicated than John Bull v Lexit, because people voted Leave for a massive spectrum of reasons. Hell my folks voted Leave because they thought, although it wouldn't win, that a close vote would screw over the Tories. They were of course half-right.

In this sense we are the same in assuming stuff about voter motivation.

I'm not assuming the motivations of 17 million people though, I'm explaining the stated motivations over many years of people on here who have been in favour of Lexit, often backed in part or whole by the main purveyors of Lexit at the time of the referendum. The concerns over neoliberal capture of institutions and the evisceration of democratic reach for the masses over things like TTIP in particular were cited throughout the course of the Lexit campaign as its main motivation.

your interpretation is to bail out and we then get a frying pan/fire interface

I actually voted Remain, because I didn't share the optimism of Lexit that the process of leaving could be shifted away from reactionary outcomes and felt it would likely lead to Britain going further down the rainy fascist island path, while getting bullied as an isolated minor player stuck between major superpowers.

But that's not to say I don't understand and sympathise with much of the critique - including that it's naive as hell to think that the EU is open to capture by a cross-EU progressive alliance. Bar some truly spectacular change in circumstance, the EU is going to continue to decline as both a democratic and a progressive entity, and tbh, if this question were asked again in ten years' time I might reckon that there was no more point in staying. A desire to get out of that bind and try to reassert popular progressive sovereignty in an independent country is perfectly rational and not in any way racist.

 

[Winot]

But that's not to say I don't understand and sympathise with much of the critique - including that it's naive as hell to think that the EU is open to capture by a cross-EU progressive alliance. Bar some truly spectacular change in circumstance, the EU is going to continue to decline as both a democratic and a progressive entity, and tbh, if this question were asked again in ten years' time I might reckon that there was no more point in staying. A desire to get out of that bind and try to reassert popular progressive sovereignty in an independent country is perfectly rational and not in any way racist.

A sensible Brexit policy would have had a ten year lead up anyway.