Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[philosophical]

Apologies, I responded separately, but my ham fisted skills have wrapped them up together.

 

[Wilf]

Wilf surely this would resolve everything, as the uk would no longer exist and a greater ireland would take its place.

I'll put my team on it right away.

 

[philosophical]

To be fair, I proposed the reunification of Ireland on this thread three whole months ago, when young philosophical was but a glint in the editor’s eye:

The concept of Irish unification goes back further than three months.

 

[andysays]

It seems partly that you are outlining my speculation in reverse. I said one consequence might be remainers urged to decamp south, and if I read it right you are suggesting brexiters in Northern Ireland and if this plan is acceptedpossibly decamp elsewhere , you specifically mention Britain (great Britain without the Northern Ireland).
I don't know if it is in the gift of the British to offer all the Irish a solution anyway (it would seem to many a form of good old British colonial patronage, doing the Irish a favour), but Theresa May has repeated several time that she would not break up the union.

As I said earlier, the whole malarkey is now time limited, and whatever the ideological benefits or drawbacks of a united Ireland, it is not practical or workable in my opinion...

And there's something else to add to the list of things you don't know, even though it's just been outlined how it might work and pointed out that the GFA has provision for this to happen.

What you reckon is once again demonstrated to be worth rather less than you appear to believe...

 

[kabbes]

The concept of Irish unification goes back further than three months.

I hadn’t seen it proposed as a solution to the Brexit border problem prior to then, although feel free to point me to where it was.

 

[Wilf]

It seems like you object to the idea that some people might not have given a moment's thought to these things. Do you?

see post 6225/7.

 

[Winot]

There is a real danger here of us deferring to well paid 'experts' here as the ones who should be doing all the thinking and deciding for us

Representational democracy you mean?

 

[philosophical]

And there's something else to add to the list of things you don't know, even though it's just been outlined how it might work and pointed out that the GFA has provision for this to happen.

What you reckon is once again demonstrated to be worth rather less than you appear to believe...

You may have that opinion, but I disagree with you (unsurprisingly).
You have outlined a couple of examples, especially your second on, that would lead to people having to choose to stay in their home community, or go away if they objected to what happens. I see that as a cavalier approach to the lives of others, perhaps that is something you don't realise.

 

[philosophical]

I hadn’t seen it proposed as a solution to the Brexit border problem prior to then, although feel free to point me to where it was.

Perhaps you could research matters of Irish home rule from 1870.

This is what you posted:

To be fair, I proposed the reunification of Ireland on this thread three whole months ago, when young philosophical was but a glint in the editor’s eye:

 

[DexterTCN]

To be fair, I proposed the reunification of Ireland on this thread three whole months ago, when young philosophical was but a glint in the editor’s eye:

You certainly did.

Did you forget about the Democratic Unionist Party who are currently propping up the tories. How do you think the democratic unionist party and the conservative and Union party would take your suggestion of trading in part of the union?

Also...nice to see you'd consider selling out your fellow citizens for convenience. NI voted remain and now you want them to fix your mess by suggesting they leave the UK?

 

[teuchter]

see post 6225/7.

Those posts contain someone else's response to the question.

They seem to accept that many people will have voted without thinking or knowing about the full consequences of the decision they opted for.

I feel that some people on here alternate between (a) taking offence at the idea that the vote was made in ignorance of the consequences for Ireland, and (b) saying that it's for the politicians to propose and work out solutions. Those two things seem contradictory to me.

 

[andysays]

You may have that opinion, but I disagree with you (unsurprisingly).
You have outlined a couple of examples, especially your second on, that would lead to people having to choose to stay in their home community, or go away if they objected to what happens. I see that as a cavalier approach to the lives of others, perhaps that is something you don't realise.

You certainly did.

Did you forget about the Democratic Unionist Party who are currently propping up the tories. How do you think the democratic unionist party and the conservative and Union party would take your suggestion of trading in part of the union?

Also...nice to see you'd consider selling out your fellow citizens for convenience. NI voted remain and now you want them to fix your mess by suggesting they leave the UK?

Let's be clear here. No one is suggesting that NI is simply given back to Ireland, or that people will be forced to leave their communities or that anyone's citizenship will be "sold out".

What is being suggested is that the question of reunification is put to the vote and that is a majority of the NI population wants it, then reunification takes place. As has already been pointed out, this is explicitly provided for in the GFA.

 

[philosophical]

Let's be clear here. No one is suggesting that NI is simply given back to Ireland, or that people will be forced to leave their communities or that anyone's citizenship will be "sold out".

What is being suggested is that the question of reunification is put to the vote and that is a majority of the NI population wants it, then reunification takes place. As has already been pointed out, this is explicitly provided for in the GFA.

A vote in Northern Ireland alone?

 

[andysays]

A vote in Northern Ireland alone?

Who do you think should vote to decide the future of NI if not the people of NI?

 

[Pickman's model]

Who do you think should vote to decide the future of NI if not the people of NI?

The people of the whole island perhaps

 

[Santino]

Is there anything worth reading on tg the last 5 pages of this thread?

 

[Pickman's model]

Is there anything worth reading on tg the last 5 pages of this thread?

Everything except philosophical's posts and of course 6251

 

[andysays]

The people of the whole island perhaps

That suits me too, though I can see that some in NI might object...

More seriously, that's not what the GFA sets out, so I don't think it can be put forward in the current situation.

 

[philosophical]

Everything except philosophical's posts and of course 6251

How generous. If you don't want to read my posts, put me on ignore.

 

[kabbes]

Is there anything worth reading on tg the last 5 pages of this thread?

Well, I’ve posted a few times.

 

[Winot]

A vote in Northern Ireland alone?

The two Governments:
(i) recognise the legitimacy of whatever choice is freely exercised by a majority of the people of Northern Ireland with regard to its status, whether they prefer to continue to support the Union with Great Britain or a sovereign united Ireland

Here's the whole thing if you fancy a read:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/136652/agreement.pdf

 

[Santino]

Do I need to repeat the question?

 

[Pickman's model]

Do I need to repeat the question?

Leave out the tg if you do repeat it

 

[philosophical]

I have highlighted the bit that says a United Ireland would have to be agreed by both the North and the South, and not by Northern ireland alone.

Article 3 1. It is the firm will of the Irish nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island. Until then, the laws enacted by the Parliament established by this Constitution shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws enacted by the Parliament that existed immediately before the coming into operation of this Constitution.

 

[prunus]

Not wanting to derail the discussion but I do like the fact that the (current) poll results above mirror the overall referendum nicely, with 48.1% on the 'no' side and the sum of the 2 'yes' types being (unsurprisingly) 51.9%.

EU Referendum Results

(now some ducker's going to go and vote and mess it up I expect).

 

[billbond]

What constitutes democracy is open to debate, but as I see it the rules followed in the UK (in the main) are that there is an election every five years or so, and a chance for change on those occasions, but the brexit referendum is a one time and forever vote and is of a different nature, a different version of democracy if you like (dare I say just as EU democracy is a different form)
The brexit referendum isn't undemocratic in that sense, the UK parliamentary system isn't undemocratic, and the EU isn't undemocratic. However none of those systems are ideal (in my view) either.
The issue now is for the brexiters to get on with it and implement it (whatever it is), and if brexiters are unable to follow through on the result of their victory we reach an impasse, which might lead to change utilising some different form of democracy as yet untried.
It is entirely down to brexiters to resolve this, some call it squaring the circle because of it's seeming impossibility.
Just as we are now faced with the consequences of the brexit vote, in just over a year we might be faced with the consequence that brexit voters have not been able to deliver (unless falling off a cliff edge is what they intended all along).[/QUOTE]

You should go into Politics
More twisting and turning than George Best in his heyday
I bet your fav tv programme was "Yes Minister"
Thats how they used to talk

 

[philosophical]

What constitutes democracy is open to debate, but as I see it the rules followed in the UK (in the main) are that there is an election every five years or so, and a chance for change on those occasions, but the brexit referendum is a one time and forever vote and is of a different nature, a different version of democracy if you like (dare I say just as EU democracy is a different form)
The brexit referendum isn't undemocratic in that sense, the UK parliamentary system isn't undemocratic, and the EU isn't undemocratic. However none of those systems are ideal (in my view) either.
The issue now is for the brexiters to get on with it and implement it (whatever it is), and if brexiters are unable to follow through on the result of their victory we reach an impasse, which might lead to change utilising some different form of democracy as yet untried.
It is entirely down to brexiters to resolve this, some call it squaring the circle because of it's seeming impossibility.
Just as we are now faced with the consequences of the brexit vote, in just over a year we might be faced with the consequence that brexit voters have not been able to deliver (unless falling off a cliff edge is what they intended all along).

You should go into Politics
More twisting and turning than George Best in his heyday
I bet your fav tv programme was "Yes Minister"
Thats how they used to talk[/QUOTE]

I bet you work for Blake Morgan.

Put me on ignore.

 

[stethoscope]

Not wanting to derail the discussion but I do like the fact that the (current) poll results above mirror the overall referendum nicely, with 48.1% on the 'no' side and the sum of the 2 'yes' types being (unsurprisingly) 51.9%.

EU Referendum Results

(now some ducker's going to go and vote and mess it up I expect).

Sorry to break your theory a little, because I voted to leave (and still believe that to be the right thing to do), but voted no in the poll because the question posed was 'will we have a brexit' and I was quite expecting (as per kaka tim's OP) at that moment, that the united pressure from capital, threats from the City, hardliner remain groups, EU, etc. would ramp it up to prevent us leaving at any cost (indeed we still have persistent calls for a 2nd referendum from the likes of Blair).

 

[Winot]

I have highlighted the bit that says a United Ireland would have to be agreed by both the North and the South, and not by Northern ireland alone.

Article 3 1. It is the firm will of the Irish nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island. Until then, the laws enacted by the Parliament established by this Constitution shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws enacted by the Parliament that existed immediately before the coming into operation of this Constitution.

Yes I think you're right (it's confusingly drafted, because the bit you've quoted is actually amendments to be made to the Irish Constitution). I guess the focus was on a majority for reunification in NI because in practice that was/is the bit that needed to change.

 

[teuchter]

This article reckons a no deal crash-out is the most likely outcome.

Crash Out Brexit Now the Defender Position | naked capitalism