Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[not-bono-ever]

 

[kabbes]

Reunification is both workable and practical. It's just ideologically undesirable to too many people. That doesn't make it unworkable or impractical, though.

 

[Pickman's model]

Citizens of Northers Ireland already are entitled to have both British and Irish passports. I believe as a consequence of the Good Friday Agreement.
If the suggestion you have outlined is offered what are people supposed to do in reality? Those who wish to remain scoop up their Irish passports and decamp south?
It may be a suggestion, but I don't see it as a workable solution, and if it has been suggested by anybody serious it is disingenuous. The dramatic scenario would be brexit Northern Irish turning on their neighbours and saying 'if you don't like it, go back to your own country, you have the passport, you have the opportunity'.
I don't see what you have outlined as any kind of potential solution, unless someone posted it here as an obvious joke or non runner.
Incidentally I am consistently urging a workable and practical solution, and you may assume I am in denial, but I have yet to read on here anything that would be workable or practical.

no one bar you is suggesting anyone decamp south

and i do assume you're in denial

 

[philosophical]

please could you eschew the mayism

If you are serious about wanting me to explain, then I think terms such as a 'soft border' or a 'frictionless border' are mealy mouthed.
You may say 'aha, a border exists now, are you calling that a 'hard' border?' I am not, because there is completely free movement of individual people to and fro, and beyond some obscure trusted trader scheme in certain goods, there is complete movement of traffic to and fro.
To my mind the terms used are disingenuous, and utilised to give brexiters some kind of 'out' when they finally say 'We never said there would be no border at all, all we ever said was no hard border'. And then bosh, stricter border measures are introduced to the consternation of many.

 

[agricola]

no one bar you is suggesting anyone decamp south

and i do assume you're in denial

philosophical got that far south already?

 

[philosophical]

Reunification is both workable and practical. It's just ideologically undesirable to too many people. That doesn't make it unworkable or impractical, though.

OK. I go along with that to an extent.
I hesitate when you use the word 'just' though.
The ideological undesirability is wrapped up in a lot of history, politics and bloodshed. For many reasons those features are an anchor weighing down progress, let alone the devil being in the practical details.
As an aspiration reunification is fair enough I suppose, and I think it is unworkable and impractical because this issue has now become time limited.
In just over a year brexit voters will have 'taken back control', and I suspect reunification would take rather longer.

 

[philosophical]

no one bar you is suggesting anyone decamp south

and i do assume you're in denial

You are wrong on both counts.

 

[DexterTCN]

Since the article is about something really quite different to the quote you pulled out of it, what was the context you were seeking to create by pulling out that quote in particular?

What...the bit where they separate it and put it in larger text than the rest of the article? They were giving context by doing so, not me. They emphasised it.

As you'd know if you'd bothered to read it before posting about my quote.

 

[Pickman's model]

If you are serious about wanting me to explain, then I think terms such as a 'soft border' or a 'frictionless border' are mealy mouthed.
You may say 'aha, a border exists now, are you calling that a 'hard' border?' I am not, because there is completely free movement of individual people to and fro, and beyond some obscure trusted trader scheme in certain goods, there is complete movement of traffic to and fro.
To my mind the terms used are disingenuous, and utilised to give brexiters some kind of 'out' when they finally say 'We never said there would be no border at all, all we ever said was no hard border'. And then bosh, stricter border measures are introduced to the consternation of many.

thread on the mayism the theresa mayism

 

[philosophical]

thread on the mayism the theresa mayism

Ah I have been educated, there are things called Mayisms, and when I said a border is a border it was one of those.

 

[teuchter]

Reunification is both workable and practical. It's just ideologically undesirable to too many people. That doesn't make it unworkable or impractical, though.

Could say the same about lots of things. Including a second referendum, or abandoning Brexit altogether.

 

[Pickman's model]

how's about a unification of ireland but with a twist, dublin gets england wales and scotland too.

 

[kabbes]

Could say the same about lots of things. Including a second referendum, or abandoning Brexit altogether.

Well, a second referendum wouldn't solve anything if it gave the same result.
Abandoning Brexit would also be a solution, yes. I don't disagree with that.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well, a second referendum wouldn't solve anything if it gave the same result.
Abandoning Brexit would also be a solution, yes. I don't disagree with that.

a second referendum might return the same result but with a greater plurality, which would go some way to resolving the thing.

 

[Wilf]

a second referendum might return the same result but with a greater plurality, which would go some way to resolving the thing.

For God's sake don't let Philosophical frame the question:

'Are you a thick, smelly northern racist who hasn't given a moment's thought to frictionless trade and the Irish Border?' YES/NO

 

[philosophical]

For God's sake don't let Philosophical frame the question:

'Are you a thick, smelly northern racist who hasn't given a moment's thought to frictionless trade and the Irish Border?' YES/NO

No way in a million years would I want a second referendum.
At no time have I mentioned fragrance, or 'The North' for that matter (unless you mean Northern Ireland).

 

[Pickman's model]

how's about a unification of ireland but with a twist, dublin gets england wales and scotland too.

Wilf surely this would resolve everything, as the uk would no longer exist and a greater ireland would take its place.

 

[teuchter]

For God's sake don't let Philosophical frame the question:

'Are you a thick, smelly northern racist who hasn't given a moment's thought to frictionless trade and the Irish Border?' YES/NO

It seems like you object to the idea that some people might not have given a moment's thought to these things. Do you?

 

[andysays]

Citizens of Northers Ireland already are entitled to have both British and Irish passports. I believe as a consequence of the Good Friday Agreement.
If the suggestion you have outlined is offered what are people supposed to do in reality? Those who wish to remain scoop up their Irish passports and decamp south?
It may be a suggestion, but I don't see it as a workable solution, and if it has been suggested by anybody serious it is disingenuous. The dramatic scenario would be brexit Northern Irish turning on their neighbours and saying 'if you don't like it, go back to your own country, you have the passport, you have the opportunity'.
I don't see what you have outlined as any kind of potential solution, unless someone posted it here as an obvious joke or non runner.
Incidentally I am consistently urging a workable and practical solution, and you may assume I am in denial, but I have yet to read on here anything that would be workable or practical.

Possibly my previous post was unclear so to clarify, the solution I'm talking about is the reunification of Ireland which has already been suggested by various posters on this thread, including kabbes very recently.

This solution could be offered by the British government to both the Irish government and the people of NI, and if it's accepted the whole of the island of Ireland becomes one nation and can continue to be a part of the EU. And any of the current inhabitants of NI who don't want to be part of this solution can, if they wish, make use of either their British passports to come and live in Britain, or their Irish passports to live elsewhere in the EU if they prefer.

 

[Riklet]

It seems like you object to the idea that some people might not have given a moment's thought to these things. Do you?[/QUOTE

Did everyone who supportef remain have a complex and well informed position on all facets of political and economic life in the UK and in the EU?

Did they fuck. And does this invalidate their political opinions? Does it fuck.

There is a real danger here of us deferring to well paid 'experts' here as the ones who should be doing all the thinking and deciding for us.

 

[kabbes]

Possibly my previous post was unclear so to clarify, the solution I'm talking about is the reunification of Ireland which has already been suggested by various posters on this thread, including kabbes very recently.

This solution could be offered by the British government to both the Irish government and the people of NI, and if it's accepted the whole of the island of Ireland becomes one nation and can continue to be a part of the EU. And any of the current inhabitants of NI who don't want to be part of this solution can, if they wish, make use of either their British passports to come and live in Britain, or their Irish passports to live elsewhere in the EU if they prefer.

... and if the people of the ROI don't want reunification, then it would completely reframe the whole question of why a hard border between the north and the south matters at all.

 

[Riklet]

It seems like you object to the idea that some people might not have given a moment's thought to these things. Do you?

Did everyone who supportef remain have a complex and well informed position on all facets of political and economic life in the UK and in the EU?

Did they fuck. And does this invalidate their political opinions? Does it fuck.

There is a real danger here of us deferring to well paid 'experts' here as the ones who should be doing all the thinking and deciding for us

 

[andysays]

... and if the people of the ROI don't want reunification, then it would completely reframe the whole question of why a hard border between the north and the south matters at all.

That's also true.

I have no idea what the position of the current Irish government might be if this offer was made to them (and it would have to be made initially to the government, I suppose), nor what the feelings of the Irish population in general might be, but if Dublin weren't prepared to treat such an offer seriously it would certainly demonstrate that the situation is rather more complex than those accusing Brexit voters of not caring about NI are making out...

 

[billbond]

"Abandoning Brexit would also be a solution, yes. I don't disagree with that."

So not a big fan of Democracy then
Maybe not the country for you then as these are the rules we have always followed in the UK
Why not throw the torys out of Power and let Labour take over .I dont disagree with that
Maybe just not have any voting at all
Whats the point really if you follow this logic
Or why not who ever comes runner up in the voting stakes be the winner
After the second vote if it took place and it went in favor of staying in the EU that would be 1-1, all level
So surely the Brexiters should demand another referendum as thats only fair and Democratic
oh no forgot you dont want that system

 

[andysays]

Reunification is both workable and practical. It's just ideologically undesirable to too many people. That doesn't make it unworkable or impractical, though.

This is (has been) the conventional wisdom, but I'm not sure it's necessarily still the case.

In any event, I suspect the people in Britain for whom abandoning Brexit is ideologically undesirable outnumber those ideologically opposed to reunification.

 

[Winot]

That's also true.

I have no idea what the position of the current Irish government might be if this offer was made to them (and it would have to be made initially to the government, I suppose), nor what the feelings of the Irish population in general might be, but if Dublin weren't prepared to treat such an offer seriously it would certainly demonstrate that the situation is rather more complex than those accusing Brexit voters of not caring about NI are making out...

As pointed out earlier, the GFA allows for reunification if desired by the majority of NI. In fact I think it is mandatory i.e. Britain can't stop it.

The majority of NI also voted to remain in the EU so on the face of this would be an elegant solution (a modest proposal?) to tick both boxes.

It might also have the effect of bringing down May's government

Well done Urban I think we've cracked it.

 

[kabbes]

"Abandoning Brexit would also be a solution, yes. I don't disagree with that."

So not a big fan of Democracy then
Maybe not the country for you then as these are the rules we have always followed in the UK
Why not throw the torys out of Power and let Labour take over .I dont disagree with that
Maybe just not have any voting at all
Whats the point really if you follow this logic
Or why not who ever comes runner up in the voting stakes be the winner
After the second vote if it took place and it went in favor of staying in the EU that would be 1-1, all level
So surely the Brexiters should demand another referendum as thats only fair and Democratic
oh no forgot you dont want that system

Not big on following the thread of a conversation, eh? Bless.

 

[not-bono-ever]

Reunification Ideology >Reunification practicality

( generally obvs & highly subjective :from what I have taken on board over the years)

 

[philosophical]

Possibly my previous post was unclear so to clarify, the solution I'm talking about is the reunification of Ireland which has already been suggested by various posters on this thread, including kabbes very recently.

This solution could be offered by the British government to both the Irish government and the people of NI, and if it's accepted the whole of the island of Ireland becomes one nation and can continue to be a part of the EU. And any of the current inhabitants of NI who don't want to be part of this solution can, if they wish, make use of either their British passports to come and live in Britain, or their Irish passports to live elsewhere in the EU if they prefer.

It seems partly that you are outlining my speculation in reverse. I said one consequence might be remainers urged to decamp south, and if I read it right you are suggesting brexiters in Northern Ireland and if this plan is acceptedpossibly decamp elsewhere , you specifically mention Britain (great Britain without the Northern Ireland).
I don't know if it is in the gift of the British to offer all the Irish a solution anyway (it would seem to many a form of good old British colonial patronage, doing the Irish a favour), but Theresa May has repeated several time that she would not break up the union.

As I said earlier, the whole malarkey is now time limited, and whatever the ideological benefits or drawbacks of a united Ireland, it is not practical or workable in my opinion.

"Abandoning Brexit would also be a solution, yes. I don't disagree with that."

So not a big fan of Democracy then
Maybe not the country for you then as these are the rules we have always followed in the UK
Why not throw the torys out of Power and let Labour take over .I dont disagree with that
Maybe just not have any voting at all
Whats the point really if you follow this logic
Or why not who ever comes runner up in the voting stakes be the winner
After the second vote if it took place and it went in favor of staying in the EU that would be 1-1, all level
So surely the Brexiters should demand another referendum as thats only fair and Democratic
oh no forgot you dont want that system

What constitutes democracy is open to debate, but as I see it the rules followed in the UK (in the main) are that there is an election every five years or so, and a chance for change on those occasions, but the brexit referendum is a one time and forever vote and is of a different nature, a different version of democracy if you like (dare I say just as EU democracy is a different form)
The brexit referendum isn't undemocratic in that sense, the UK parliamentary system isn't undemocratic, and the EU isn't undemocratic. However none of those systems are ideal (in my view) either.
The issue now is for the brexiters to get on with it and implement it (whatever it is), and if brexiters are unable to follow through on the result of their victory we reach an impasse, which might lead to change utilising some different form of democracy as yet untried.
It is entirely down to brexiters to resolve this, some call it squaring the circle because of it's seeming impossibility.
Just as we are now faced with the consequences of the brexit vote, in just over a year we might be faced with the consequence that brexit voters have not been able to deliver (unless falling off a cliff edge is what they intended all along).

 

[kabbes]

To be fair, I proposed the reunification of Ireland on this thread three whole months ago, when young philosophical was but a glint in the editor’s eye:

I think I have the perfect solution.
Hand NI to the RoI. Reunite Ireland.
It's perfect in its irony. It'll piss off the very people in NI that voted for Brexit on nationist grounds and provide those on the republican side who voted against Brexit exactly what they wanted all along. Furthermore, it solves the whole Irish border problem at a stroke.