Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[paolo]

If the UK is such an unproductive, uncompetitive country that needs to have capital and underpaid workers regularly pumped into it to prevent economic collapse, then in the EU or out of the EU, we're fucked either way.

One thing with our economy, much like say Germany and France, is we’re getting older. Healthcare costs rise, tax revenue goes down (in proportion).

Immigrant workers - for now at least - are net positive. They pay more in tax than they draw in services.

I’d like better protection for their labour. I’m not sure “fuck off” is the answer for that.

 

[redsquirrel]

One thing with our economy, much like say Germany and France, is we’re getting older. Healthcare costs rise, tax revenue goes down (in proportion).

Who's economy, the UK's? How is that our economy?

People on U75 rightly pour scorn on Cameron or May talking about how "we're all in it together", why are some now following them, and Farage, the CBI, the DoI, LibDems, BoE and all the other wankers into giving weight to this nonsense.

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If we are going to have this debate then lets start at the beginning - what is the UK/British/rUK (whichever you prefer) economy when it's at home?

 

[paolo]

Who's economy, the UK's? How is that our economy?

People on U75 rightly pour scorn on Cameron or May talking about how "we're all in it together", why are some now following them, and Farage, the CBI, the DoI, LibDems, BoE and all the other wankers into giving weight to this nonsense.

----

If we are going to have this debate then lets start at the beginning what is the UK/British/rUK (whichever you prefer) economy when it's at home?

I’m talking basics. Paying for healthcare. The NHS is part of our economy, and can’t be wished away.

 

[redsquirrel]

I’m talking basics. Paying for healthcare. The NHS is part of our economy, and can’t be wished away.

In my view you are, with the greatest respect, talking gibberish. The individual words may make sense but the sentence is meaningless.

You are constructing a false contention upon a whole heap of assumptions, many of which I don't accept, indeed I consider them politically regressive. I mean you keep on talking about "our economy", who is the our here? What do you mean by an economy?

 

[alex_]

If the UK is such an unproductive, uncompetitive country that needs to have capital and underpaid workers regularly pumped into it to prevent economic collapse, then in the EU or out of the EU, we're fucked either way.

I know what’ll help - let’s make it harder to trade with our biggest export/import market.

Alex

 

[paolo]

In my view you are, with the greatest respect, talking gibberish. The individual words may make sense but the sentence is meaningless.

You are constructing a false contention upon a whole heap of assumptions, many of which I don't accept, indeed I consider them politically regressive. I mean you keep on talking about "our economy", who is the our here? What do you mean by an economy?

I’m not sure how to answer that.

Do you mean an economy is a false contstruct? Or one (and there’s meat here) that it values the wrong things?

Any bystanders help me now. Is it just a made up word? What *is* an economy.

 

[alex_]

In my view you are, with the greatest respect, talking gibberish. The individual words may make sense but the sentence is meaningless.

You are constructing a false contention upon a whole heap of assumptions, many of which I don't accept, indeed I consider them politically regressive. I mean you keep on talking about "our economy", who is the our here? What do you mean by an economy?

If you wish to take part in this conversation perhaps you should get a dictionary so you can understand some of the basics.

This might help.

economy | Definition of economy in English by Oxford Dictionaries

I’d image he means the British economy.

Alex

 

[paolo]

There can also be a broader definition. You can include things that are socially useful, but not income generating - raising children, caring for a relative, doing work in the community etc.

How all that plays into pro/anti Brexit, might be too much for my brain right now.

 

[stethoscope]

If you wish to take part in this conversation perhaps you should get a dictionary so you can understand some of the basics.

This might help.

RS understands more about economies than most of you dicks.

What he's asking is our economy? Unpack it, what does that really mean? The 'economy' isn't mine, or other workers. It's that of those with class and capital interests and power.

 

[stethoscope]

Won't somebody think of our economy?

Well, actually I'm a libertarian communist, so no.

 

[redsquirrel]

I’m not sure how to answer that.

Do you mean an economy is a false contstruct? Or one (and there’s meat here) that it values the wrong things?

Any bystanders help me now. Is it just a made up word? What *is* an economy.

I consider "the British economy" as referred to by the media, politicians and on here a political construct, one that was designed to facilitate the exploitation of labour. Thus, we have statements about how free trade is "good for the [British] economy" and that nationalisation and/or higher taxes are "harmful to the economy". And the use of this construct removes class and reinforces nationhood, "our economy", meaning British not labour.

 

[pocketscience]

I’m not sure how to answer that.

Do you mean an economy is a false contstruct? Or one (and there’s meat here) that it values the wrong things?

Any bystanders help me now. Is it just a made up word? What *is* an economy.

The UK has a market economy, so to a large extent the economy belongs to the markets (capital). You'd be able to take more ownership of a planned economy and therefore say it's 'ours' - at least on a democratic level.

 

[Pickman's model]

The UK has a market economy, so I guess the economy belongs to the markets. You'd be able to take more ownership of a planned economy and therefore say it's 'ours' - at least on a democratic level.

Schoolboy error. Like every country the UK has a mixed economy. #economics101

 

[pocketscience]

Schoolboy error. Like every country the UK has a mixed economy. #economics101

True. Any indicators on where the UK is on a scale between public and private compared to other economies?

 

[DexterTCN]

RS understands more about economies than most of you dicks.

No he doesn't, as is absolutely plain from his posts where he tries to force everything into his own world-view. And your insulting attitude adds nothing but heat when we need light, as usual. Why not contribute to a discussion about an extremely serious situation instead of giving us your shite about a libertarian communistic fantasy.

Dealing with the real world here, you know.

 

[Pickman's model]

True. Any indicators on where the UK is on a scale between public and private compared to other economies?

Very hard to say when so much infrastructure owned by companies linked to foreign governments.

 

[kabbes]

So you don't know?

You're entering the global market on your own and don't know what commodities you have for equity? You don't know who you'll trade with, you have no agreements, you don't have any industries*, you have no geographical advantages** and very few friends***.

You have no trade advantages, no labour cost advantages (uh-oh...guess what happens there). Even if you can attract inward investment...the profit goes out of the country (either to foreign investors or tax havens if it's an 'internal' UK company). You have no economic model. All you can do is sell the family silver and there's precious little of that left (nhs?) and pimp of the labour force for no value.

*no industries that are not stronger in other parts of the world and can outbid/undercut you or already have strong agreements in place. Unless you can name one.

** too close to europe, too far from everyplace else.

*** none, basically

redsquirrel is right, but if we ignore that and play the “our economy”game:

If the rest of the world was wiped out in a freak plague that only a combination of tea, umbrellas and queuing gave immunity against, would the UK cease to function? In the long term, would it be unable to look after itself?

What about, in the actual globalised society we current have: after Brexit, will UK ownership of overseas assets cease to be valid?

How about whether culture, education and infrastructure provide any advantages to an economy?

In short, is the UK in the top half dozen economies only because of 40 years of free trade with the EU?

 

[redsquirrel]

paolo, a question for you to (hopefully) help elucidate the point I'm trying to make.

It is the mainstream political consensus that the UK (and other countries) economy in the 1970s was "in trouble", that it was doing "badly". Would you agree with that consensus?

 

[paolo]

True. Any indicators on where the UK is on a scale between public and private compared to other economies?

I’d be really interested to see
some numbers on that.

Doing ‘better’ can’t be measured solely on company profit and wages.

 

[Raheem]

How about whether culture, education and infrastructure provide any advantages to an economy?

Contrary to what is generally thought by absolutely no-one, yes they do.

 

[paolo]

paolo, a question for you to (hopefully) help elucidate the point I'm trying to make.

It is the mainstream political consensus that the UK (and other countries) economy in the 1970s was "in trouble", that it was doing "badly". Would you agree with that consensus?

I can’t say I have much of an idea beyond the conventional history books. Reflecting on my childhood experience (statistically erase), the 70s in hindsight seemed fucked. We were investing in things better left to commerce (eg cars), and underinvesting in more important stuff (Rail).

I don’t think the 70s was a good time. Bad industrial relations, bad nationalisation. Strikes, power cuts, it wasn’t good.

It seems like more recently - last few decades - we’ve bounced the entirely wrong way.

I’m going way off the Brexit discussion. Zzzzzp.

 

[kabbes]

I don’t think the 70s was a good time. Bad industrial relations, bad nationalisation. Strikes, power cuts, it wasn’t good.

It was the peak for wage equality, though. And lots of associated wellbeing measures.

 

[kabbes]

Contrary to what is generally thought by absolutely no-one, yes they do.

I wasn’t suggesting it was a controversial point.

If culture, education and infrastructure are important, that is becaus they provide a competitive advantage that will still exist post-Brexit. How will the UK thrive without open access EU markets? Using the same competitive advantages it currently uses, is how.

 

[DotCommunist]

Of course its been massaged into popular memory as the hell of that Winter of Discontent.

 

[Raheem]

I wasn’t suggesting it was a controversial point.

If culture, education and infrastructure are important, that is becaus they provide a competitive advantage that will still exist post-Brexit. How will the UK thrive without open access EU markets? Using the same competitive advantages it currently uses, is how.

The same competitive advantages it will have fewer of.

 

[kabbes]

The same competitive advantages it will have fewer of.

It’s losing its culture and education? And its infrastructure, bar the nebulous idea that trading rights comprise “infrastructure”?

 

[SpackleFrog]

I can’t say I have much of an idea beyond the conventional history books.

So you think we're fucked outside the EU but you don't know anything about the time before our membership of EEC/EU and the advent of Thatcherism?

 

[DexterTCN]

https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/mcvities-digestives-packs-shrink-rising-ingredient-costs/

 

[Pickman's model]

https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/mcvities-digestives-packs-shrink-rising-ingredient-costs/

But what do you think about it?

 

[Pickman's model]

So you think we're fucked outside the EU but you don't know anything about the time before our membership of EEC/EU and the advent of Thatcherism?

Tbh we're fucked in or out of the eu