Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[Winot]

it was decided at conference that labour would be pro-remain. Regardless of his own opinions, corbyn thusly reflected that. It was mentioned at the time that his support seemed less than full throated! libs were complaining some went as far to mutter darkly in the groan about how his half heartedness cost us dearly etc

I don't think its news that Corbyns been of a leave mind for many many years now, this is common knowledge surely?

Yes of course we know he’s leave. But he said recently he’d vote remain (again?).

 

[NoXion]

Fristly - who is this "us" and "we" that the EU are seeking to punish? Why are supposed anarchists and revolutionaries identifying themselves with bourgeois notions of national identity?

I dunno about you, but I happen to live in the UK, so any macho hardball bullshit or punitive measures the EU takes will inevitably affect me. Even if the EU elites are actually taking aim at their counterparts over here, that shit will trickle down.

 

[sleaterkinney]

The remainers are still moaning and are spending big money trying to overturn the result. Shut up it's called democracy.

People do change their mind about things, what are the polls now?

 

[sealion]

what are the polls now?

I don't care anymore. The polls are only pulled up when it suits the rhetoric .

 

[SpookyFrank]

People do change their mind about things, what are the polls now?

I voted remain and if they run it again I'm voting leave.

Any polls would be pretty meaningless absent any real prospect of another referendum.

 

[NoXion]

Voted leave, would vote leave again if there was another referendum. Nothing has changed since the last one, if anything the events that have transpired in the meantime have only confirmed my suspicions about the EU.

 

[redsquirrel]

Any polls would be pretty meaningless absent any real prospect of another referendum.

Yes very much so.

There’s also a question of how useful a referendum voting intention question is when there isn’t actually a second referendum due. The most likely route to a second referendum is a referendum on the terms of the deal…which obviously aren’t known yet. In my experience, most people who contact polling companies asking whether we’ve asked a Brexit referendum question aren’t primarily interested in how people would vote in a second referendum, but really want to see if the public have changed their mind about how they voted in the first one…

 

[DexterTCN]

Can I just ask what it is you're actually going to sell to the rest of the world?

 

[NoXion]

Can I just ask what it is you're actually going to sell to the rest of the world?

Maybe some of us have this notion that part of the problem with the EU (and capitalism in general), is this idea that we should be pimping ourselves out to whatever degree that international capital demands?

 

[DexterTCN]

Maybe some of us have this notion that part of the problem with the EU (and capitalism in general), is this idea that we should be pimping ourselves out to whatever degree that international capital demands?

But you need to exist, right? You use money?

What will you trade, to generate income?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

But you need to exist, right? You use money?

What will you trade, to generate income?

Homemade jams and plastic police tit hats.

 

[NoXion]

But you need to exist, right? You use money?

What will you trade, to generate income?

I need to exist, yeah. But I don't think we need exclusive access to EU markets to exist. Plenty of other countries manage to get along fine without completely prostrating themselves before Brussels.

I also use money. But since I generally use Pound Sterling rather than the Euro or any other currency, I'm not sure what the relevance is.

 

[Kaka Tim]

I need to exist, yeah. But I don't think we need exclusive access to EU markets to exist. Plenty of other countries manage to get along fine without completely prostrating themselves before Brussels.

I.

do they? most countries are being butt fucked trade wise by corporations and/or the likes of the USA and china.

 

[NoXion]

do they? most countries are being butt fucked trade wise by corporations and/or the likes of the USA and china.

USA and China eh? Neither of those sound close to Brussels. Plus it's not like the EU has done much to rein in multinational corporations.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

USA and China eh? Neither of those sound close to Brussels. Plus it's not like the EU has done much to rein in multinational corporations.

Come come now, Junker was the guvnor of Luxembourg and look how they have reined the fuckers in.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Bizarre reification of referendums here. If Ireland's referendum on abortion this year goes the wrong way will such arguments still be used?

 

[Kaka Tim]

I was challenging your assertion that "Plenty of other countries manage to get along fine without completely prostrating themselves before Brussels".

 

[agricola]

Would that be the same Jeremy Corbyn who voted and campaigned for remain - and says he would do so again?

TBH Corbyn is the one politician at the top that has a sane position on the EU; ie: that there are serial and severe problems with it, but that the idea that this edition of the Tory Party could be trusted with negotiating our way out of it is something that is best avoided. It is like being aboard a ship which is barely afloat - you do want to call attention to the problem the vessel is in, but you don't want to really trust the bloke who is telling you that the best way to save yourself is to leap into the water after setting yourself on fire.

 

[DexterTCN]

I need to exist, yeah. But I don't think we need exclusive access to EU markets to exist. Plenty of other countries manage to get along fine without completely prostrating themselves before Brussels.

I also use money. But since I generally use Pound Sterling rather than the Euro or any other currency, I'm not sure what the relevance is.

What will you sell (or trade) to any market, to any nation or state or entity, allowing access to the global market, that will keep a balanced and healthy economy?

 

[NoXion]

I was challenging your assertion that "Plenty of other countries manage to get along fine without completely prostrating themselves before Brussels".

By shooting yourself in the foot through pointing out the influence of Washington and Beijing?

 

[NoXion]

What will you sell (or trade) to any market, to any nation or state or entity, allowing access to the global market, that will keep a balanced and healthy economy?

I dunno, I'm no economist, but I reckon we could trade whatever we have left after Brexit causes the spontaneous combustion of all the UK's productive industries.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

What will you sell (or trade) to any market, to any nation or state or entity, allowing access to the global market, that will keep a balanced and healthy economy?

Do you have any values other than monetary ones?

 

[NoXion]

Do you have any values other than monetary ones?

Not to mention the completely unwarranted assumption that allowing access to the global market is what will "keep a balanced and healthy economy". Balanced and healthy for whom?

 

[Kaka Tim]

By shooting yourself in the foot through pointing out the influence of Washington and Beijing?

cant follow your reasoning here. The uk will be less able to negotiate favourable deals with the USA and China then what it could get through the EU.

 

[redsquirrel]

Can I just ask what it is you're actually going to sell to the rest of the world?

But you need to exist, right? You use money?

What will you trade, to generate income?

Who is the you're/you referred to here? (As if I don't know).

Whether the UK is part of the EU or not, I, and the vast majority of people in the UK will generate income by the exploitation of my labour, either directly or indirectly.

Bizarre reification of referendums here. If Ireland's referendum on abortion this year goes the wrong way will such arguments still be used?

By who?

 

[DexterTCN]

I dunno, I'm no economist, but I reckon we could trade whatever we have left after Brexit causes the spontaneous combustion of all the UK's productive industries.

What productive industries? What do you produce, what can you trade that belongs to you? Steel, cars, coal, fridges, cutlery, TVs? What do you make? What natural resources?

What will you trade?

 

[NoXion]

What productive industries? What do you produce, what can you trade that belongs to you? Steel, cars, coal, fridges, cutlery, TVs? What do you make? What natural resources?

What will you trade?

Well, I personally will be trading my labour power for an inadequate compensation, just like I have been doing for most of my adult life.

If you're talking about the UK in general, most workers in the UK - you know, the people who actually create the wealth - are not going to vanish in a puff of smoke once we leave the EU.

 

[DexterTCN]

Well, I personally will be trading my labour power for an inadequate compensation, just like I have been doing for most of my adult life.

If you're talking about the UK in general, most workers in the UK - you know, the people who actually create the wealth - are not going to vanish in a puff of smoke once we leave the EU.

So you don't know?

You're entering the global market on your own and don't know what commodities you have for equity? You don't know who you'll trade with, you have no agreements, you don't have any industries*, you have no geographical advantages** and very few friends***.

You have no trade advantages, no labour cost advantages (uh-oh...guess what happens there). Even if you can attract inward investment...the profit goes out of the country (either to foreign investors or tax havens if it's an 'internal' UK company). You have no economic model. All you can do is sell the family silver and there's precious little of that left (nhs?) and pimp of the labour force for no value.

*no industries that are not stronger in other parts of the world and can outbid/undercut you or already have strong agreements in place. Unless you can name one.

** too close to europe, too far from everyplace else.

*** none, basically

 

[NoXion]

So you don't know?

You're entering the global market on your own and don't know what commodities you have for equity? You don't know who you'll trade with, you have no agreements, you don't have any industries*, you have no geographical advantages** and very few friends***.

You have no trade advantages, no labour cost advantages (uh-oh...guess what happens there). Even if you can attract inward investment...the profit goes out of the country (either to foreign investors or tax havens if it's an 'internal' UK company). You have no economic model. All you can do is sell the family silver and there's precious little of that left (nhs?) and pimp of the labour force for no value.

*no industries that are not stronger in other parts of the world and can outbid/undercut you or already have strong agreements in place. Unless you can name one.

** too close to europe, too far from everyplace else.

*** none, basically

If the UK is such an unproductive, uncompetitive country that needs to have capital and underpaid workers regularly pumped into it to prevent economic collapse, then in the EU or out of the EU, we're fucked either way.

 

[paolo]

I dunno, I'm no economist, but I reckon we could trade whatever we have left after Brexit causes the spontaneous combustion of all the UK's productive industries.

I’m no economist either.

45% of our trade is with the EU27 countries.

It won’t vanish on exit day. It won’t continue either, on that level.

What we’re *told* is that the slack, and more to boot, will be filled by other countries. It’s a promise. No deals have been done (legally we can’t), but trust the politicians, it will be fine.

Hands up who trusts this to happen? (If you see inter country trade as a bad thing, fill your boots. You can do this right away, you’ve won already)