Is Brexit actually going to happen?

[teuchter]

the EU wishes to use us as an example to scare other European countries from leaving the EU,

The EU *is* other countries.

 

[MightyTibberton]

And this stuff about playing hardball and punishing I don't get.

Because the EU position has to be agreed by all those countries it has to be very simple. And it is. And they've published what it is - a series of options. And that includes protecting the integrity of the single market.

The UK government position seems to be that it can somehow split the 27 to break that stated position and deliver on the promises of all the trade with none of the stuff Farage doesn't like. Maybe they can.

I am worried, and I think it's fair to be, that this position (and contradictory red lines on Ireland) will be used to say a decent deal can't be done so duck it we'll have No Deal and an attempt will evade to turn us into the low tax, low wage, low regulation Singapore fantasy of Daniel Hannah's dreams.

If instead we turn into a lovely democratic socialist green paradise I'll be very pleased and very surprised!

 

[teuchter]

Remainers get called remoaners. But there seem to be a lot who supported Brexit who are now moaning that the EU is not being nice to us. Shut up, it's what you voted for.

 

[Pickman's model]

The EU *is* other countries.

Hell *is* other people

 

[Santino]

Remainers get called remoaners. But there seem to be a lot who supported Brexit who are now moaning that the EU is not being nice to us. Shut up, it's what you voted for.

If a woman asks to divorce her husband is she entitled to complain if he's being a prick about it?

 

[sealion]

The remainers are still moaning and are spending big money trying to overturn the result. Shut up it's called democracy.

 

[paolo]

If a woman asks to divorce her husband is she entitled to complain if he's being a prick about it?

Tells, not asks.

 

[pocketscience]

Tells, not asks.

You apply for a divorce - so ask is more appropriate. Your application can actually be turned down!

 

[paolo]

You apply for a divorce - so ask is more appropriate. Your application can actually be turned down!

True.

So the divorce analogy isn’t quite right for Brexit. We’ve not asked to leave, we’ve told.

 

[Kaka Tim]

The remainers are still moaning and are spending big money trying to overturn the result. Shut up it's called democracy.

you are absolutely right. the people have spoken and that's the end of it. i will ask a moderator to close the thread.

 

[DotCommunist]

Remainers get called remoaners. But there seem to be a lot who supported Brexit who are now moaning that the EU is not being nice to us. Shut up, it's what you voted for.

Here:
Before the poster claimed that the EU were non ideological and that all this was process not ideology.

He now reverses this but cannot term it in any other way than 'not being nice'- this you see is to infantalise complaints. All of a sudden its 'well, what did you expect' said with a satisfied smirk. So we see a complete reversal of your earlier position but rather rather than a sober analysis about why you might have been wrong we get this. Still, remainers we're wrong about the vote, the reasons for the vote, the effects it would have on the domestic political landscape and now, haltingly they admit they we're wrong about the EU being a benign non political entity

 

[sealion]

you are absolutely right. the people have spoken and that's the end of it. i will ask a moderator to close the thread.

You could get a load of venture capitalists, hedge fund managers and a ex prime minister/ murderer to try and change a democratic vote. Oh wait a minute,,,

 

[Kaka Tim]

I get the logic, but it is still delusional. Yes, they will play hard ball to try and either force us to back off from Brexit or punish us to make an example should we leave. I get that the EU wishes to use us as an example to scare other European countries from leaving the EU, however if they go down this route it will blowback in their faces, and the blowback has the potential to be far more radical and even unsavoury than anything we have so far witnessed. Should the EU go down this route, it will simply confirm to anyone left who still doubts the authoritarian and undemocratic nature of the EU that the EU is beyond any possibility of reform and will never change its ways. Indeed the EU's solution to any problem is more integration, more EU, even when those problems are caused by the EU itself. If the EU elites think that such a course will not have consequences and if they think that voters won't opt to punish them by voting for radical parties when they have elections, then the EU elites are beyond delusional. That said, you may be right and they still go for such a poor choice, their funeral if they do.

Any political party or movement that works to stop Brexit can kiss it's political popularity and relevance goodbye. They will, if they are lucky, become as small and as inconsequential as the Lib Dems. Even amongst those who voted Remain during the referendum, only a minority back the 'Stop Brexit' position.

Fristly - who is this "us" and "we" that the EU are seeking to punish? Why are supposed anarchists and revolutionaries identifying themselves with bourgeois notions of national identity?

And as for the idea that if the EU punishes the UK this will cause some sort of blowback amongst the people of other EU countries - i dont see that at all.

The pressure to ensure that the UK does not do better out of the EU than in is coming from the national governments of the EU27 - because their own populations want the UK to go bollocks. I would imagine the harder the EU is on the UK - the more support it would get from the citizens of the rest of the EU - Britain is not well liked in Europe, and brexit has compounded that view.

AS far as i can see the only significant groups in Europe who think brexit is to be welcomed (because of the damage it does to the EU) are the far right.

 

[Kaka Tim]

You could get a load of venture capitalists, hedge fund managers and a ex prime minister/ murderer to try and change a democratic vote. Oh wait a minute,,,

yawn - or you could get the daily mail, a load of right wing nationalists and the uber freidmanites of the tory party to push for the UK to exit ASAP on the most extreme terms.

Or how about recognising that the leading forces on both sides of the issue are a bunch of utter cunts?

 

[DotCommunist]

If you still think the EU is left-wing, take a look at its latest rising star

found this from last year interesting. Clickbait headline off course, indy

 

[sealion]

yawn - or you could get the daily mail, a load of right wing nationalists and the uber freidmanites of the tory party to push for the UK to exit ASAP on the most extreme terms.

Corbyn wants out, is he a right wing nationalist in your book as well ?

Or how about recognising that the leading forces on both sides of the issue are a bunch of utter cunts?

Thats a given and hardly breaking news.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Corbyn wants out, is he a right wing nationalist in your book as well ?

Thats a given and hardly breaking news.

Would that be the same Jeremy Corbyn who voted and campaigned for remain - and says he would do so again?

 

[sealion]

Would that be the same Jeremy Corbyn who voted and campaigned for remain

That means sweet fa and i never stated he voted out. What has he said about the eu ? He's been scathing of them.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Really good piece on Brexit from Cillian Gillespie from Socialist Party Ireland if anyone's interested, particularly on the issue of a hard border.

Ireland, the EU and the Brexit divorce deal- a socialist analysis

 

[teuchter]

Here:
Before the poster claimed that the EU were non ideological and that all this was process not ideology.

He now reverses this but cannot term it in any other way than 'not being nice'- this you see is to infantalise complaints. All of a sudden its 'well, what did you expect' said with a satisfied smirk. So we see a complete reversal of your earlier position but rather rather than a sober analysis about why you might have been wrong we get this. Still, remainers we're wrong about the vote, the reasons for the vote, the effects it would have on the domestic political landscape and now, haltingly they admit they we're wrong about the EU being a benign non political entity

No - you're getting carried away with your imagination again. Or you're just a liar.

1) I did not previously say they were non-ideological. Here's what I said before:

I don't think anyone's said that the EU's people handling Brexit are non-ideological, or "implacably fair", are they?

The EU's people are doing what anyone could expect - negotiating in the interests of the EU.

2) It's not "all of a sudden it's well what did you expect". That's exactly what I said before.

So there is no "complete reversal of position". Just you putting words in my mouth, as usual.

 

[DotCommunist]

Its in every word of discussion about these ongoing negotiations. You will now of course deny this. The fact that its taken as non-ideological is why it isn't mentioned. Why would you? This is all perfectly normal.

as was said at the time. Still, you'll claim to mean whatever suits you this week. Wriggle as you like.

 

[teuchter]

as was said at the time. Still, you'll claim to mean whatever suits you this week. Wriggle as you like.

As was said by you, you nutter! Not me.

 

[Kaka Tim]

That means sweet fa and i never stated he voted out. What has he said about the eu ? He's been scathing of them.

you said he "wants out". I dont see any evidence of that. Hes opposed to large parts of the EU program but - like lots of people - voted remain because of the likely negative consequences of leaving

 

[butchersapron]

you said he "wants out". I dont see any evidence of that. Hes opposed to large parts of the EU program but - like lots of people - voted remain because of the likely negative consequences of leaving

I thought he'd made it clear that he wants the result of the referendum to be respected and that this means leaving. In that sense he does 'want out' surely?

 

[SpackleFrog]

you said he "wants out". I dont see any evidence of that. Hes opposed to large parts of the EU program but - like lots of people - voted remain because of the likely negative consequences of leaving

He's opposed membership for decades and he's heavily influenced by the Tribuite/CP British Road to Socialism stuff, of course he doesn't want to be in the EU.

 

[Winot]

He's opposed membership for decades and he's heavily influenced by the Tribuite/CP British Road to Socialism stuff, of course he doesn't want to be in the EU.

If you’re correct he is either a liar or a hypocrite.

 

[Kaka Tim]

I thought he'd made it clear that he wants the result of the referendum is to be respected and that this means leaving. In that sense he does 'want out' surely?

I thought it was about "constructive ambiguity". Corbyn and Labour going with the path of least resistance, trying to sit it out whilst giving themselves enough wriggle room to change tack if popular opinion decisively changes. And a "jobs first" brexit suggests that they would vote against a deal which undermined employment levels and wages - and they are on record as opposing a "hard brexit".
My point earlier was that corbyn can't be described as someone who is a "leading brexiteer" - and that the brexit faction is led by right wing tories and nationalists (does anyone really dispute that?)
The labour brexit mix is further queered by the progress mob using the remain argument it as a wedge issue - Umunna being at the forefront.

 

[SpackleFrog]

If you’re correct he is either a liar or a hypocrite.

I certainly don't think he's been very clear about his position. Probably much less of a liar and a hypocrite than most MP's still though.

 

[DotCommunist]

If you’re correct he is either a liar or a hypocrite.

it was decided at conference that labour would be pro-remain. Regardless of his own opinions, corbyn thusly reflected that. It was mentioned at the time that his support seemed less than full throated! libs were complaining some went as far to mutter darkly in the groan about how his half heartedness cost us dearly etc

I don't think its news that Corbyns been of a leave mind for many many years now, this is common knowledge surely?

 

[sealion]

If you’re correct he is either a liar or a hypocrite.

An mp being a liar and hypocrite. That would never ever happen would it ?