Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Says who?
Is Brexit actually going to happen?
- Thread starter Kaka Tim
- Start date
Says who?
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
What would be the point of having a union if there are not advantages to being in it?, and disadvantages to being outside?
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
What are the EU supposed to say - you're better off outside?
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
What would this positive approach look like? Their priorities are to safegaurd the right of EU citizens in the UK, the irish border, preserve the integrity of the EU and then to take advantage of the political and economic opportunities of the UK leaving. And they have been quite open about that since day 1.
On what planet would they have acted any differently?
Raheem
Well-Known Member
Expand a bit on this. I'm intrigued.
MightyTibberton
Well-Known Member
I admire your optimism!
SaskiaJayne
Rural Guerrilla
Of the small sample of leave voters I actually speak to none of them voted leave to negotiate anything. As you point out. They voted to leave the EU thats all. It is self evident that if you leave you cannot continue to enjoy the benefits of membership. Nobody I know voted to continue to enjoy the benefits membership. They want to leave the EU because they don’t want to be ruled by the non elected EU.they want to live by laws made by an elected UK government. This would seem a logical reason for leaving.
The government state that they want to negotiate a “comprehensive free trade deal”. By definition that cannot be as good as the comprehensive free trade deal we have as members of the EU. If it was possible there would be no need to negotiate because it would be the same trade deal as we have now. So we are back to the impossibility of negotiating brexit. If you are leaving then there is nothing to negotiate as plenty of brexiteers have pointed out.
What we have now is leading to no brexit or brexit in name only. Unless at some point the negotiations fail then we have the brexit that was voted for. You cannot negotiate to make things worse. Only to make things better.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
The UK and Ireland never signed up to Schengen, their borders were secure. When the EU expanded
Eastwards to hoover up a load of cheap labour Germany stalled and refused to open their borders to free movement, Blair didn’t stall, cos he’s a rabid Tory scumbag. Germany stalling whilst the UK opened their borders is the leading reason for Brexit.
Most of us on these boards are of an age to remember the signs changing at the airports, EEC, EEA, EU etc. with no explanation as to why. With the former Eastern Block countries being invited to join, even though their economies were nowhere near comparable to those in Western Europe, free movement was only ever going to lead to many people heading west, but Germany said NO and the Benelux countries copied France in making themselves an unappealing destination, so many people headed to the UK. And many people in the UK felt that too many came here. Whether they did or whether certain sectors of the media just portrayed it that way is moot, that is the main reason why most people voted leave.
Germany famously went on to allow a million refugees in and the backlash was savage. They will now be taking a similar line to their neighbours, razor wire fences and so on.
France just makes itself very unappealing to anyone moving in that they don’t want, the Jungle has gone, the refugees haven’t, go to Calais, they are still there, living in worse conditions than ever.
The UK leaving the EU is us pulling up the drawbridge, that leaves France and Germany as the big countries and the rulers of those countries are fully aware of how a large increase in migrants will go down with their electorates.
There is no reason why the UK can’t have an economic relationship with the rEU that is pretty seemless, and that will benefit UK citizens and EU citizens except the EU as represented by Germany and France (Benelux are included in them two) doesn’t want the UK to stop taking Eastern Europeans cos their countries will react badly to taking up that slack.
Maybe.
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Raheem
Well-Known Member
That's not really the only reason. But apart from that, why would it be in their interests to do something their countries will react badly to? You don't seem to be saying anything more than that what HMG wants isn't compatible with what the EU27 want. A description of the problem, rather than a solution to it.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
The UK is leaving the EU, it is happening. It would be in their interests to make it work for all parties involved, but they, like many here that think it will somehow not happen, are trying to make it as bad as possible for all sides in the forlorn hope that their negative actions will provide the positive result they desire. Yet Bexiteers are the delusional ones.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
What relationship, specifically, are you proposing? What does a "seamless economic relationship" mean? Where does free movement come into this? You seem to be implying some scenario where the UK continues to take in migrants, to divert them from France and Germany, or something
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
What relationship, specifically, are you proposing? What does a "seamless economic relationship" mean? Where does free movement come into this? You seem to be implying some scenario where the UK continues to take in migrants, to divert them from France and Germany, or something
Try thinking harder about it. If after 24 hours you still can’t think of an answer, ask again.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
What relationship, specifically, are you proposing? What does a "seamless economic relationship" mean? Where does free movement come into this? You seem to be implying some scenario where the UK continues to take in migrants, to divert them from France and Germany, or something
I think the scenario he's suggesting is that we effectively do everything more or less the same, but the UK is exempted from free movement, and that would be easy and benefit everyone, except the petty Eurotyrants don't want the extra migrants. Correct me if I haven't thought hard enough about it, BS.
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
The EU is going to make it as awkward as possible for the UK to leave. Which is entirely predictable as its the obvious thing to do - they have far less to lose.
Its also probable they want the whole brexit thing to come off the tracks and the UK comes back to the fold.
I dont think thats a delusional position at all. Its entirely logical.
Hard brexit is seen as too damaging to the UK - this is clearly the belief of the UK government bar the headbangers - and its certainly the postion of UK buisness and finance sectors.
Soft Brexit is pretty pointless - the UK is still subject to much of the EU rules and regs but has no input into shaping them. However this is where we are seemingly heading.
A large chunk of the uk establishment is trying to plot a path where they whole thing gets called off and are waiting for a critical mass of people to realise that its a colossal waste of time.
All three outcomes look politically impossible - but one has got to happen.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
They don’t. If they carry on as they are and the UK doesn’t suffer a catastrophic meltdown they risk the breakup of the EU itself. They could have set a
course for a friendly parting, they have chosen not to. Who stands to lose what here?
teuchter
je suis teuchter
You are welcome to have 24hrs to write something substantially less hand-wavy.
MightyTibberton
Well-Known Member
How do you think Leave voters here will react to a deal whereby we swap free trade for allowing the thing - eastern European immigration - that made them angry enough to vote to leave the EU? You'll have poor Nigel reaching for his rifle again.
Germany and France will still have free movement with EU members from eastern Europe, they can't fudge that. People from the poorer countries will go to the richer ones with most jobs, for the moment we are not that, and, as a result - to the joy of some Leavers - the number of EU immigrants has already gone down quite a lot I believe.
I do agree that the decision to allow in the A8 countries was very important and while I was looking just now I found some good figures on migration and an interesting article too:
Migrants in the UK: An Overview - Migration Observatory
The huge political cost of Blair's decision to allow Eastern European migrants unfettered access to Britain
Germany and France will still have free movement with EU members from eastern Europe, they can't fudge that. People from the poorer countries will go to the richer ones with most jobs, for the moment we are not that, and, as a result - to the joy of some Leavers - the number of EU immigrants has already gone down quite a lot I believe.
I do agree that the decision to allow in the A8 countries was very important and while I was looking just now I found some good figures on migration and an interesting article too:
Migrants in the UK: An Overview - Migration Observatory
The huge political cost of Blair's decision to allow Eastern European migrants unfettered access to Britain
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
No they dont. The only risk is if the post brexit uk suddenly flourishes with booming economic growth and exports but with less of those pesky immigrants. They are betting that this is not likely to happen (and they are certainly not going to facilitate it).
And as safe bets go .....
I’d say that setting a precedent of allowing a state to leave, but keep benefits a la carte, is what would risk the breakup of the EU.
e.g. If I was the current (awful, imho) Polish leadership, I’d leave, but keep the EU money, the freedom of movement, but tell the EU not to ask anything of, say, judicial independence.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
OK, if you can’t be fucked to use the brains you was born with, at 0630 tomorrow Ceebebies starts up again, set your alarm.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Why do you think they are so fucking desperate for us not to leave?
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
Any evidence for this "desperation"?
Seems the attitude of the EU27 ranges between (at most) regretful resignation to "off you fuck then".
SaskiaJayne
Rural Guerrilla
As you point out UK position has always been that it is in the best interests of all concerned to have a comprehensive trade deal as good as we have now. Maybe in the death the EU will agree to that? Or it might not. That is not a negotiation it is an ultimatum. Brexit cannot be negotiated. There is nothing to negotiate.
MightyTibberton
Well-Known Member
This friendly parting thing... they can read our press and hear our politicians and watch Farage turning up for the 10 minutes a year he spends not on TV sofas to call them all counts to their faces. The British press wrote so much rubbish about the EU that they had to set up a special unit to rebut it.
European Commission in the UK - European Commission
A good relationship is in everyone's interests, I hope something can be worked out. Do you know what Boris' latest not-at-all-a-distraction contribution is? A bridge across the Channel.
I think we should all be concerned at the possibility of a No Deal being engineered in order to go to town on the rest of our public services and possibly much worse than that. Why are human rights being stripped out of UK law, why are ministers being given powers to make legislation with no parliamentary check, why was animal sentience dropped?
MightyTibberton
Well-Known Member
Why do you think they're building so much office space in Frankfurt and Paris?
MightyTibberton
Well-Known Member
As a breaking news aside...
Raheem
Well-Known Member
This is the Leaver's Achilles delusion, IMO. They're not at all desperate for us not to leave, it's not their objective and it was never likely to be. Because it's not an outcome they can directly deliver, and because there are clear upsides to us leaving in the right way. So long as we're in or nearly in the CU, they're protected from the worst of the damage, they can take chunks out of our services sector and/or extort money in lieu, and they're rid of our veto.
pocketscience
Well-Known Member
Raheem
Well-Known Member
Yeah, for 1 euro an hour jobs... what a utopia
So you voted leave to protect the UK's generosity towards asylum seekers?
pocketscience
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I don't recall that multiple choice question being on the ballot paper
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