Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
you posted some guff about people voting tory in 1997 and ukip more recently which i mistakenly believed you intended people to take seriously.
Is Brexit actually going to happen?
- Thread starter Kaka Tim
- Start date
SaskiaJayne
Rural Guerrilla
They will have voted Tory in '97. This despite a large swing to Labour in '97 Clacton area constituency still in '97 returned a Tory MP by a large majority. More recently Clacton has twice returned a UKIP MP. This would suggest that the specific people I was referring to have totally entrenched views & nothing will change their minds. Most of those around me did vote UKIP at the last GE.
I have nothing better to do Pickers so shall I keep answering your posts until we ruin the thread?
I have nothing better to do Pickers so shall I keep answering your posts until we ruin the thread?
SaskiaJayne
Rural Guerrilla
I had to google that to find out what it was. Price rise will be caused by brexit £ collapse against $. 
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
labour took the seat in 1997 and held it till 2005. Its always had a high proportion of narrow minded fuck wits though (i left in 1991).
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
go on then
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
thought you'd have encountered giving head before.I had to google that to find out what it was. Price rise will be caused by brexit £ collapse against $.
SaskiaJayne
Rural Guerrilla
Yes, my mistake. The boundaries have now changed & Clacton constituency no longer includes Harwich which it did when last there was a Labour MP. New Clacton constituency returned Carswell as a Tory & more recently as a UKIP MP. As mentioned by Kaka Tim I live my life surrounded by the narrow minded fuckwits referred to & most I speak to changed from Tory to UKIP.
If you look at the district councillors for the whole Tendring area in north Essex the Clacton wards are just about all UKIP. Harwich is mostly all Labour with one UKIP with the more rural parts mostly Tory. From what I could find on google the district has 23 Tory councillors 14 UKIP 4 Labour 1 Lib Dem & the rest 12 various independants.
If you look at the district councillors for the whole Tendring area in north Essex the Clacton wards are just about all UKIP. Harwich is mostly all Labour with one UKIP with the more rural parts mostly Tory. From what I could find on google the district has 23 Tory councillors 14 UKIP 4 Labour 1 Lib Dem & the rest 12 various independants.
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littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
By way of a recap: Ashcroft polls told 81% of people who voted leave think Multiculturalism is a "force for ill" and likewise 80% Immigration is "a force for ill" (and i dont think they were thinkjing about brits on the costa del sol). The other stats on that list are worth a check too.
May isnt stupid - she knows exactly what what she needs to say to these people, who no doubt put and keep her in power. She may be being cynical about it - pandering - or she may be on board..who knows. Best guess (according to the Goldman Sachs tape) is she's pandering.
You cant ask if people are racist, but those questions give a strong impression of attitudes and outlook.
When it says "Britain" i guess it means parliament. My understanding is that Parliament could always vote for anything it wanted if the house agreed to it, but it really isnt the point - its doesnt matter if Article 50 is binding by law, it matters who would dare overturn a referendum result. But thats where the long game kicks in........its not conceivable now, but theres the slimmest possibility it be in the future...
That guy Kerr who drafted it clearly has an agenda though "Kerr wants either parliament or the public - through an election or a second referendum - to revisit the decision to leave the EU in a year to 18 months time, the BBC said." He's a bonafide blocker
Not enough info on those stats to say too much as they don't include the 'neithers ' . Would like to see the full stats though as you could then work out an overall picture of how many people really are anti immigration.
Eta: actually you can work out how many 'neithers' there are knowing the overall vote was 52:48. But it involves a bit of maths that I'm not going to do atm
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bimble
floofy
I think the fact that the Daily Mail is now the UK's favourite source of news, overtaking the Sun and telegraph for the top spot, is maybe quite important.
Mail Online hit daily ABC record of 15.3m in August as Sun Online was fastest growing site – Press Gazette
Mail Online hit daily ABC record of 15.3m in August as Sun Online was fastest growing site – Press Gazette
SaskiaJayne
Rural Guerrilla
The difficulty here is that ime the racists/xenophobes don't look or act like racists/xenophobes. The normal mundane folk who live around me will reveal their feelings to people they know in general conversation & they would think multiculturalism is a force for ill but I doubt they would reveal that in random phone polls & other methods used to gauge public opinion. They might say things like "weeelll we can just keep letting everybody in" but it takes a bit more conversation to reveal their true feelings. These people are not unintelligent though but tend to parochial. I wonder if they are influenced by what papers like the Mail print or does the Mail just print what these people want to read?
bimble
floofy
Its got to be all about selling clicks / papers for the owners of the DM but that doesn't mean they aren't responsible for stirring up real hatred and misinformation. In general, the higher the immigration rate to an area the more likely it was to vote remain, so that at least to some extent anti-immigrant feeling is strongest where there are very few immigrants and you just read about them, in the DM.
Fear of immigration drove the leave victory – not immigration itself
Also, this has got some really interesting stats in it, about the way that concern about immigration has risen to become the number one issue that people in the UK say they are worried about. Charts showing the relationship between actual net migration, newspaper stories about migration and how worried people feel.
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/Assets/D...ting-ground-attitudes-to-immigration-2016.pdf
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SaskiaJayne
Rural Guerrilla
Yes, I can believe that. Around where I live there is little industry so not that may European immigrants but people around me have been racist for decades so nothing new.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Pity otherwise they could be separated out from all non-racists. Incidentally what proportion of the UK population are racists in your opinion?
Treacle Toes
Time
What a bizarre question.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I think you've missed the thrust of SJ's posts. The point is rather the opposite - that there are a sizeable number of people who hold racist attitudes of one kind or another who are not evil people, just a bit ignorant, a bit bigoted and a bit racist. IME a lot of people are a bit racist, often without really knowing it.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I think you may have in turn missed rs' thrust about the nonsense of people potentially looking like racist xenophobes. What would that person look like do you think?
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
But she hasn't talked about racism or racist attitudes, she's talked about racists, as if we can divide people up into two camps. The racists and the non-racists.I think you've missed the thrust of SJ's posts. The point is rather the opposite - that there are a sizeable number of people who hold racist attitudes of one kind or another who are not evil people, just a bit ignorant, a bit bigoted and a bit racist. IME a lot of people are a bit racist, often without really knowing it.
SaskiaJayne
Rural Guerrilla
I have no idea. I can only go by the people I have actually met in the course of my life living & working in a provincial area which is has never been an area with any sort of immigrant population. I have always been suprised at the virulent racism displayed by the otherwise most urbane & mundane people you could hope to meet. This will be those doing manual work & up the scale to managerial. They don't get on soapboxes but it comes out in conversation. Decades ago it was "Pakis" & so on & nowadays it is no different directed at current immigration. What I do notice is the reluctance by them to understand the difference between legal immigration from the EU & immigration, legal & illegal from rest of world.
You're misreading that (everyone did at the time) - it's the other way round. 81% of people who think multiculturalism is a force for ill voted for brexit. IIRC the figures weren't quite so stark the other way round.
What on earth can you do about 'these people?'IME a lot of people are a bit racist, often without really knowing it.
SaskiaJayne
Rural Guerrilla
It would depend how you view it. One could just call these people bigoted & ignorant or you could call them racist but what I am alluding to is the casual & virulent racism displayed in conversation from ordinary white people like "I hate 'em, send the cunts home, Enoch was right" & so on. This attitude is not new, it is decades old.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Apart from you haven't just alluded to such opinions, you've assigned all UKIP voters to the racist bin (and bin is exactly what it is as you've claimed that nothing will change the minds of these racists). And how much further do we go? After all it wasn't UKIP that developed the UKs current immigration policies, are all Tory voters racist? LibDem voters? Labour voters? Was that "bigoted woman" that tackled Gordon Brown a racist? By the time you've finished there's no going to be many non-racists, but never mind they can all pat each other on the back.
Can't you see the political outcome of writing off a huge proportion (probably a majority) of the UK population?
Why does it surprise you? As a society, and not just in Britain, we are reaping the rewards of de-industrialisation and the growth of the McJob economy, the demise of significant working class organisation, the retreat of the left, in its powerlessness to affect the economy, into identity politics, and the room this has opened up for the neo-liberals to deepen their project. No amount of moralising or hand-wringing (another major characteristic of today's left) can really affect this. Things would be much worse without the distraction of pointless consumerism and the vent offered by internet foaming.
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SaskiaJayne
Rural Guerrilla
I have not been drawing any conclusions from this I have just been posting up my observations made over decades. The casual racism displayed by the most normal of people has always suprised me.
Motivation for the vote was xenophobia, racism and also ignorance. So, how would you call those people?
Also it's the city of london you should direct your anger at...not brussels or berlin if we're going to be honest...
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Raheem
Well-Known Member
You can put quote marks around them as a rhetorical trick.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
'these people' include a larger number of people I know. I wasn't talking in the abstract. Ultimately, you can hope that, when they die, the new generation can be better. Also, you can try to nudge them towards something better, but in the knowledge that you will probably fail.
I don't pretend to have solutions to everything. I'm also not framing such people as monsters, which I think was also saskia jayne's point, but that always gets drowned out whenever this subject is discussed on here.
I'd expect better from you, tbh. That's a shit response. Just shit.
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