IRA worship

[Dilzybhoy]

To compare Irish Nationalism with German Nationalism is disgusting.

The word nationalist is misleading in the context of Scotland and Ireland. The correct term would be separatist. Which of course is compatible with socialism.
e.g SSP, IRSP.

Only a thicko would confuse Irish/Scottish Nationalism with German or British.
One is about equality and self determination. The other is about dominance and supremacy.
As far apart as loyalism and republicanism in fact.
Fanta is well aware of this.

 

[Pickman's model]

Only a thicko would confuse Irish/Scottish Nationalism with German or British.

i don't know why you're so surprised by revol68. he's hardly the sharpest tool in the box.

nor's fanta, while i think of it...

 

[revol68]

yeah i mean it's so retarded to pick out the similarities between nationalisms.

and as for dilzybhoys fantastically nuanced analysis of the differences between dominating nationalisms and liberatory ones well i bow before it's intellectual crown.

 

[Dilzybhoy]

yeah i mean it's so retarded to pick out the similarities between nationalisms.

But there are none between those we are talking about.

So anyone who can pick out a few, or even one for that matter, is pretty damn clever in my book.

 

[In Bloom]

One is about equality and self determination. The other is about dominance and supremacy.

And once the former has achieved its aims, it will likely move on to the latter.

 

[butchersapron]

The full stop opens up,the question doesn't it?

(not that i care)

 

[In Bloom]

But there are none between those we are talking about.

All are based on the assumption that a shared interest exists between all members of a "nation", regardless of class and that therefore it is quite alright to have a ruling class, as long as it is a ruling class drawn from your own nation.

 

[Dilzybhoy]

And once the former has achieved its aims, it will likely move on to the latter.

Probably. But those aims have not yet been achieved.

 

[Dilzybhoy]

The full stop opens up,the question doesn't it?

(not that i care)

No it's just lazy grammar.

 

[Dilzybhoy]

All are based on the assumption that a shared interest exists between all members of a "nation", regardless of class and that therefore it is quite alright to have a ruling class, as long as it is a ruling class drawn from your own nation.

No.

 

[In Bloom]

No.

Any chance of further clarification? Beyond my clumsy phrasing*, I don't see the problem.

*I should really have said:
All are based on the assumption that a shared interest exists between all members of a "nation", regardless of class; it follows from this that it is quite alright to have a ruling class, as long as it is a ruling class drawn from your own nation.

 

[likesfish]

although an organisation that gets up in the morning with the intention of deliberatly killing civillians that day has to be respected not

 

[Pickman's model]

although an organisation that gets up in the morning with the intention of deliberatly killing civillians that day has to be respected not

know you of such an organisation?

 

[dylanredefined]

There not civilians there legitimate targets sort of like collateral damage
only press confrences are less hi tech

 

[oi2002]

To compare Irish Nationalism with German Nationalism is disgusting.

The word nationalist is misleading in the context of Scotland and Ireland. The correct term would be separatist. Which of course is compatible with socialism.
e.g SSP, IRSP.

Only a thicko would confuse Irish/Scottish Nationalism with German or British.
One is about equality and self determination. The other is about dominance and supremacy.
As far apart as loyalism and republicanism in fact.
Fanta is well aware of this.

Now the problem you have there is Nationalism as a whole buggered up Europe's 20th century so it's got a bit of a negative image. Nationalisms are generally Chauvanistic but they aren't all malign.

The SNP are certainly a separatist party, but I don't think many in SF would want to be put in the same camp as the Tartan Tories. They are Irish Nationalists and proud of it. I think a United Ireland precedes Brits Out by a fair way. Afterall would it not be more accurate (and annoying) to call the Unionists an Irish separatist party.

 

[durruti02]

But there are none between those we are talking about.

So anyone who can pick out a few, or even one for that matter, is pretty damn clever in my book.

at the risk of being too clever


er the blue shirts

dev's corporatist state

neutrality in the second world war ( when hitler was gassing the jews)

use of mythological bollox to underpin politics

fascination with uniform and military shit

etc etc

look the PIRA was NOT left wing in any way at all .. it began turning left wing AFTER it became obvious that the ira could NOT bomb the brits out of ireland ( and in fact was causing more harm than not) and AFTER republicans were imprisonned and studied history and politics and began the LONG withdrawal form armed struggle which they saw clearly was a dead end .. and i and most of ulster and ireland thanks adams etc for that

 

[bolshiebhoy]

neutrality in the second world war ( when hitler was gassing the jews)

and next you'll be telling us Churchill was right when he argued for reoccupying the Free State. After all the larger war arms of democratic Britain were more important.

 

[Dilzybhoy]

at the risk of being too clever

Yir alright son. There's no danger there.

 

[Dilzybhoy]

Any chance of further clarification? Beyond my clumsy phrasing*, I don't see the problem.

*I should really have said:
All are based on the assumption that a shared interest exists between all members of a "nation", regardless of class; it follows from this that it is quite alright to have a ruling class, as long as it is a ruling class drawn from your own nation.

Yiu just said the same shite.
And shite it is.
"All" members is it?
Pure pish frankly.

 

[Dilzybhoy]

Now the problem you have there is Nationalism as a whole buggered up Europe's 20th century so it's got a bit of a negative image. Nationalisms are generally Chauvanistic but they aren't all malign.

The SNP are certainly a separatist party, but I don't think many in SF would want to be put in the same camp as the Tartan Tories. They are Irish Nationalists and proud of it. I think a United Ireland precedes Brits Out by a fair way. After all would it not be more accurate (and annoying) to call the Unionists an Irish separatist party.

I wasn't putting them in the same camp.
But others were putting them in the same camp as German nationalists.
I don't think the loyal brethren would be keen on being described as "separatist" .
Nor would I feel the urge to describe separatists as loyalists.

 

[In Bloom]

Yiu just said the same shite.
And shite it is.
"All" members is it?
Pure pish frankly.

So do tell, what separates the beliefs of Irish nationalists about the nation state and those of, say, English nationalists.

 

[fishfingerer]

So do tell, what separates the beliefs of Irish nationalists about the nation state and those of, say, English nationalists.

Irish nationalism is defensive, English nationalism is imperialist.

 

[In Bloom]

Irish nationalism is defensive, English nationalism is imperialist.

How imperialist is modern English nationalism though? Look at the modern English nationalists, like the EDP, they're not imperialist afaik, positively isolationist, in fact.

Anyway, I didn't ask what the historical difference between the two is, despite appearances, I'm not a complete idiot. What I asked was:

what separates the beliefs of Irish nationalists about the nation state and those of, say, English nationalists?

My point was that nationalism of all kinds is ultimately reactionary because it supports the ruling class of that particular nation.

 

[fishfingerer]

How imperialist is modern English nationalism though? Look at the modern English nationalists, like the EDP, they're not imperialist afaik, positively isolationist, in fact.

But they will still celebrate the days of the old empire and its icons. Irish nationalism is almost wholly defined by the country's history of resistance to english imperialism.

 

[In Bloom]

But they will still celebrate the days of the old empire and its icons. Irish nationalism is almost wholly defined by the country's history of resistance to english imperialism.

Does it matter?

Are you going to answer the question I actually asked in the first place or not?

 

[fishfingerer]

Does it matter?

Are you going to answer the question I actually asked in the first place or not?

I think you edited your post after I replied or something, I didn't see the question. I agree with you more or less, but I'll respond later, I'm away out.

 

[In Bloom]

I think you edited your post after I replied or something, I didn't see the question

Ah, sorry about that, realised I'd missed something important out and went back to add it, didn't think anyone had noticed

 

[durruti02]

Yir alright son. There's no danger there.

so you ask for some links between irish nationalism and fascism .. then ignore them

.. well it wasn't my people who got lead down the reactionary right wing blind alley of nationalism .. and shafted severely .. so i guess go just carry on wallowing in your own mess mate

 

[durruti02]

and next you'll be telling us Churchill was right when he argued for reoccupying the Free State. After all the larger war arms of democratic Britain were more important.

so i think it was wrong that irealnd was neutral = i think that churchill should have reoccupied ireland

what sort of idiot logic is that??

you think it was right that ireland was neutral??

 

[bolshiebhoy]

you think it was right that ireland was neutral??

Course not, neutrality is for liberals.Dev should have declared war on the UK and taken the six counties back.