‘AA’, the British state and the IRA

[skyscraper101]

But who were better at breakdown cover? The AA or the RUC?

 

[Casually Red]

Once you get armed groups running about and troops ends up getting deployed.
The spooks follow with their "good ideas" the "big picture" " cant make an omlette without breaking eggs" etc etc etc


Especailly in Northern ireland that rarely made it into the top 10 things the british cabinet gave a shit about it certainly wasn't a plum posting for spooks unless your the sort of spook who wanted to get his war on.
The British didnt have a realistic end stratergy running away wasnt an option.
Niether was slaughtering all the potential ira members which were the two traditional appoaches to colonial troubles
So spooks could get "creative" as nobody else had a plan

They had a plan, and a consistent one that went directly to cabinet level . IRA moles in the Royal Mail in London seized the briefing documents . And the Provos...under a different leadership, openly published them in their newspaper during the late 1970s . Long since forgotten and obliterated by deliberate revisionism from the Provo leadership .
Namely Ulsterisation , normalisation and criminalisation . While at the same time making British rule in an updated form acceptable to the nationalist/ republican community . While resigning themselves to an " an acceptable level of violence " emanating from a recalcitrant but inevitable dissatisfied republican rump .
All those objectives have been achieved in spades . You really have to hand it to them . They set out their stall and stuck to it . The victory was total
. The British strategy and the Provo strategy ultimately became one and the same. After imperceptible shift after imperceptible shift , for years on end .

 

[8den]

They had a plan, and a consistent one that went directly to cabinet level . IRA moles in the Royal Mail in London seized the briefing documents . And the Provos...under a different leadership, openly published them in their newspaper during the late 1970s . Long since forgotten and obliterated by deliberate revisionism from the Provo leadership .
Namely Ulsterisation , normalisation and criminalisation . While at the same time making British rule in an updated form acceptable to the nationalist/ republican community . While resigning themselves to an " an acceptable level of violence " emanating from a recalcitrant but inevitable dissatisfied republican rump .
All those objectives have been achieved in spades . You really have to hand it to them . They set out their stall and stuck to it . The victory was total
. The British strategy and the Provo strategy ultimately became one and the same. After imperceptible shift after imperceptible shift , for years on end .

Amazing how the British maintained a single unified strategy over 5 decades and about 9 different governments from 2 different parties.

 

[likesfish]

Unfortunatly the alteranative republican plan of some celtic socialist nirvania was bullshit.
Forget about the problems of the prods.
A socialist possibly communist friendly country off the coast of europe ?
Not happening not with a staunchly catholic country and those helpful scamps of the cia about

 

[Casually Red]

CR is basically the Forest Gump of Northern Ireland. There's yet to be a thread about anything involving the troubles where casually red can't claim tangent involvement.

Wait till the 1916 threads start and we find out that he used to visit the green grocers were the rebels surrendered and had just been inside buying a head of lettuce half an hour before Pearse showed up.

Well 8den when someone actually spent years living in the hotspots which were the epicentre of the conflict that's what tends to happen . It's a very small place, west Belfast . The falls and shankill interface even smaller . Tiny in fact . And that's we're a lot of the violence was concentrated . The RVH was basically outside my front door . It was pretty hard to ignore these events when they happened on your doorstep . And I'm certainly not going to disremember them on your behalf . No matter how much little free staters like yourself prefer blid ignorance of " up there "? And indeed take pride in it .

You're largely clueless about life in general but you shouldn't expect everyone to dumb down to your bland level just to suit you .

 

[Casually Red]

Amazing how the British maintained a single unified strategy over 5 decades and about 9 different governments from 2 different parties.

No 8den. You've gotten that wrong . You don't really have a clue what you're talking about here. Smilies and emoticons aren't a rebuttal of anything . They just advertise an ignorance of events that you wear like a badge of honour .

 

[likesfish]

Amazing how the British maintained a single unified strategy over 5 decades and about 9 different governments from 2 different parties.

But it was evil and we are good at that

 

[eoin_k]

The thing is, Casually Red isn't making any ethical claims about this strategy, just describing it in its own terms.

 

[8den]

Well 8den when someone actually spent years living in the hotspots which were the epicentre of the conflict that's what tends to happen . It's a very small place, west Belfast . The falls and shankill interface even smaller . Tiny in fact . And that's we're a lot of the violence was concentrated . The RVH was basically outside my front door . It was pretty hard to ignore these events when they happened on your doorstep . And I'm certainly not going to disremember them on your behalf . No matter how much little free staters like yourself prefer blid ignorance of " up there "? And indeed take pride in it .

You're largely clueless about life in general but you shouldn't expect everyone to dumb down to your bland level just to suit you .

Its not just WB mate, you've claimed first hand knowledge of everything from the Kingsmill massacre to I think to claiming personal information about the murderers of Gerry McCabe.

I said Forest Gump earlier, perhaps you're more of Walter Mitty.

 

[DaveCinzano]

But who were better at breakdown cover? The AA or the RUC?

Or Green Flag

 

[DaveCinzano]

 

[skyscraper101]

Or Green Flag

I don't think they go to the loyalist hoods.

 

[Casually Red]

Its not just WB mate, you've claimed first hand knowledge of everything from the Kingsmill massacre to I think to claiming personal information about the murderers of Gerry McCabe.

I said Forest Gump earlier, perhaps you're more of Walter Mitty.

See your talking massive shit now . Back your own points up with links, like a good man . And let's have it out. I'm off to work soon so you have the whole day to dig this stuff out .

I went to school with a son of one of those targeted in the kings mill massacre . Hardly surprising as it took place just a few miles up the road from me . In a sparsely populated area by most standards .
And I was threatened and abused in Dublin by an irate branch man in Dublin on the day that other branch man was shot in Limerick . As we're numerous republican minded people all over the country for weeks afterwards .

Is that the sum of your bullshit now you creepy little obsessive fucking bollocks ?

Are you intent in wrecking and derailing another serious thread with your limp wristed, Molly coddled, infantile and proudly and unapologetically ignorant fucking bullshit ?

 

[DaveCinzano]

I don't think they go to the loyalist hoods.

I'm sure they've tinkered around under the odd vehicle parked up on an East Belfast driveway early of a morning.

 

[Pickman's model]

.
And I was threatened and abused in Dublin by an irate branch man in Dublin on the day that other branch man was shot in Limerick .

sure we've all been threatened and abused by irate branch men in dublin.

 

[8den]

See your talking massive shit now . Back your own points up with links, like a good man . And let's have it out. I'm off to work soon so you have the whole day to dig this stuff out .

I went to school with a son of one of those targeted in the kings mill massacre . Hardly surprising as it took place just a few miles up the road from me . In a sparsely populated area by most standards .
And I was threatened and abused in Dublin by an irate branch man in Dublin on the day that other branch man was shot in Limerick . As we're numerous republican minded people all over the country for weeks afterwards .

Is that the sum of your bullshit now you creepy little obsessive fucking bollocks ?

Are you intent in wrecking and derailing another serious thread with your limp wristed, Molly coddled, infantile and proudly and unapologetically ignorant fucking bullshit ?

Creepy & obsessive is working out my real name and using it on this forum. Got a while to go before I match your standards.

And cheers like I said you like to make grandiose claims about tenious connections to every event in the past 50 years of NI History, so ta for proving my point.

Tell me do you still have the terrible scar from when you got hit from shrapnel off Mountbattens boat?

 

[eoin_k]

Not really start a low intentsity civil war its going to get bloody thats what civil wars are like. Expecting any state not to get its hands dirty is naive.

The thing is the state was involved from the beginning. This thread had made me go back through the chronology.


May/June 1966 - Loyalist assassinations of three civilians

August 1968 - Loyalists attack demonstrators

October 1968 - RUC attack demonstrators

January 1969 - RUC attack demonstrators

March April 1969 - Loyalists bomb infrastructure

April 1969 - RUC beat civilian to death in his own home during clashes with demonstrators

July 1969 - RUC beat Catholic rioter to death

August 1969 - Loyalists Bomb Republic of Ireland

August 1969 - Battle of the Bogside, Rioting - Pretty strong case for Republican violence being defensive; British Army deployed

Dec 1969 - Provisional/Official split

June 1970 - Gun battle during riots in Ardoyne and Short Strand after Loyalist Orange Marches had fought their way into neighbourhoods - again strong case that Republican violence was defensive.

July 1970 - British Army kills 4 Catholics during falls curfew

Feb 1971 - British Army raids on Catholic areas - kill 2

[ETA - Looks like there are some Republican attacks on - or aimed at soldiers on patrol in this gap that I missed previously]

March 1971 - Republicans assassinate 3 off duty soldiers <------ Turning point in Republican violence AFTER British soldiers have killed Catholics

May IRA Bomb - military target

July - Soldiers shoot two civilians

August - Internment

December - Loyalist pub bomb - kills 15 including 2 children

December - Unclaimed - presumably Republican bomb of civilian target - kills 2 adults and 2 children

January 1972 - Bloody Sunday

February - Aldershot Barracks bombed by Official IRA

Spring 1972 - PIRA bombing campaign

 

[Pickman's model]

The thing is the state was involved from the beginning. This thread had made me go back through the chronology.


May/June 1966 - Loyalist assassinations of three civilians

August 1968 - Loyalists attack demonstrators

October 1968 - RUC attack demonstrators

January 1969 - RUC attack demonstrators

March April 1969 - Loyalists bomb infrastructure

April 1969 - RUC beat civilian to death in his own home during clashes with demonstrators

July 1969 - RUC beat Catholic rioter to death

August 1969 - Loyalists Bomb Republic of Ireland

August 1969 - Battle of the Bogside, Rioting - Pretty strong case for Republican violence being defensive; British Army deployed

Dec 1969 - Provisional/Official split

June 1970 - Gun battle during riots in Ardoyne and Short Strand after Loyalist Orange Marches had fought their way into neighbourhoods - again strong case that Republican violence was defensive.

July 1970 - British Army kills 4 Catholics during falls curfew

Feb 1971 - British Army raids on Catholic areas - kill 2

March 1971 - Republicans assassinate 3 off duty soldiers <------ Turning point in Republican violence AFTER British soldiers have killed Catholics

May IRA Bomb - military target

July - Soldiers shoot two civilians

August - Internment

December - Loyalist pub bomb - kills 15 including 2 children

December - Unclaimed - presumably Republican bomb of civilian target - kills 2 adults and 2 children

January 1972 - Bloody Sunday

February - Aldershot Barracks bombed by Official IRA

Spring 1972 - PIRA bombing campaign

you've missed out partition, which was of course a british invention.

 

[DaveCinzano]

But who were better at breakdown cover? The AA or the RUC?

Question is, which is the true Third Force Emergency Service?

 

[Pickman's model]

Question is, which is the true Third Force Emergency Service?

there is no third force in the uk to match the crs in france or the carabinieri in italy.

 

[likesfish]

Ruc loyalists were at best semi detached from the rest of the birtish state the whole place was ignored by westminster for decades an agreement was westminster didnt discuss NI so when it did kick off everything got worse

 

[eoin_k]

Ruc loyalists were at best semi detached from the rest of the birtish state the whole place was ignored by westminster for decades an agreement was westminster didnt discuss NI so when it did kick off everything got worse

Some might say, deliberately so. But lets leave that to one side. The chronology of the British Army's involvement was also significant. Can you realy describe Republican violence before March 1972 as 'starting a low intensity civil war'? Because, if not, you need to face the fact that by then British Soldiers had killed 6 Catholics. They were already involved and Frank Kitson had received a gong for his service the previous year.

ETA: Underlined text is probably wrong - that seems to be the year he serves - gets the gong in 1972 for 1971, but that might seem significant in itself.​

 

[Pickman's model]

Ruc loyalists were at best semi detached from the rest of the birtish state the whole place was ignored by westminster for decades an agreement was westminster didnt discuss NI so when it did kick off everything got worse

used to be an annual 'ra march past westminster, back in the 50s, maybe 60s

 

[Idris2002]

Casually Red may be our very own Ambassador from Planet Loon, but his claims to have been on the fringes of this or that incident in the long span of the "late unpleasantness" are by no means implausible. NI is a very small place you see.

I myself have stories I wouldn't share on the interwebs, not only because A) they're not very interesting, but also B) it would be immediately obvious who the people concerned in those stories are, because NI is a very small place.

 

[likesfish]

Met one of the soldiers first on the ground they really didnt have a clue why they were there so if it was some cunning plan it never reached the poor sods on the ground.


If they British state could foist Ni off on the south it would in a heartbeat.

The army was sent into protect the catholics but it was a very blunt instrument tell them to enforce a curfew thats what they do.

 

[Idris2002]

Met one of the soldiers first on the ground they really didnt have a clue why they were there so if it was some cunning plan it never reached the poor sods on the ground.


If they British state could foist Ni off on the south it would in a heartbeat.

The army was sent into protect the catholics but it was a very blunt instrument tell them to enforce a curfew thats what they do.

The genius who deployed regiments recruited from the most Orange parts of Scotland to the Falls deserves a special mention, mind.

 

[8den]

Casually Red may be our very own Ambassador from Planet Loon,

True, he's like Jazzz only much less pleasant.

 

[Idris2002]

True, he's like Jazzz only much less pleasant.

I don't think C/Red would stoop to the "Huntley is innocent" level mind.

 

[Idris2002]

Re: eoin_k's list above. The Official/Provie split is usually attributed (in part) to the machinations of Fianna Fail, isn't it?

 

[Pickman's model]

The genius who deployed regiments recruited from the most Orange parts of Scotland to the Falls deserves a special mention, mind.