‘AA’, the British state and the IRA

[Casually Red]

It was the UDA, not the UVF, you halfwit.

It was UDA headquarters , but the meeting was CLMC . Combined loyalist Military Command . UDA, UVF , RHC .

 

[Casually Red]

I thought you'd been previously told by the mods to stop replying to , mentioning or alluding to my posts ? Please desist from this behaviour .

 

[krtek a houby]

... Prods on the border, it's how it was . .

 

[krtek a houby]

I thought you'd been previously told by the mods to stop replying to , mentioning or alluding to my posts ? Please desist from this behaviour .

Stop posting your sectarian bullshit, so.

 

[krtek a houby]

You arse.

 

[krtek a houby]

I thought you'd been previously told by the mods to stop replying to , mentioning or alluding to my posts ? Please desist from this behaviour .

"It's just a stalky little cunt disrupti g yet another thread perusing an Internet grudge . Like a few others ."

Practice what you preach, like.

 

[Casually Red]

Nobody was referring to you.

4?..no..5 now.. of my posts, in 2 threads, 4 within the past 7 minutes .

 

[Pickman's model]

Attributed by the sticks . It's unhistorical nonsense though .

i thought it was more traditionally attributed to the (dublin) leadership of the ira running down the organisation's capacity to wage war and their adoption of socialist politics which were pushed to the fore (executive summary).

 

[Pickman's model]

4?..no..5 now.. of my posts, in 2 threads, 4 within the past 7 minutes .

if it's who i think it is, they go through phases of this sort of obsessive behaviour and then blames the recipient for stalking and otherwise harassing them.

 

[Casually Red]

Indeed . And he's been told already by the mods to desist even from referring to my posts.

 

[krtek a houby]

Nobody was referring to you.

4?..no..5 now.. of my posts, in 2 threads, 4 within the past 7 minutes .

I applaud your counting skills. Well done, chum.

 

[krtek a houby]

Indeed . And he's been told already by the mods to desist even from referring to my posts.

Run to the mods, then, you snivelling little bigot.

 

[Idris2002]

Attributed by the sticks . It's unhistorical nonsense though .

No, it's not:


"Former leading Official IRA member Bobby McKnight, 71, breaks his 40-year silence in a new book on the organisation published today.

Belfast man McKnight, who in 1969 was a member of the IRA command staff, states that along with another man he drove to Dublin Airport in September 1969. There he met then minister for finance Charles Haughey’s brother, Jock, and took delivery of several cases of weaponry, which filled his pickup truck, these were then transported to IRA members in Dublin.

In The Lost Revolution – The Story of the Official IRA and the Workers Party, written by Irish Examiner journalist Scott Millar and historian Brian Hanley, McKnight confirms his role in the arms plot which resulted in the major political crisis of the 1970 Arms Trial.

He is the first persondirectly involved in the transportation of arms shipments organised by government ministers to the IRA to confirm the existence of the plot.

McKnight confirms there were contacts between the IRA and Fianna Fáil representatives even prior to the outbreak of widescale violence in Northern Ireland in August 1969.

The book also reveals the extent of government fears about a resurgent IRA south of the border and plans to split the organisation along left/right lines, a strategy which aided the creation of the Provisional IRA.

A Department of Justice cabinet memo, dated March 18, 1969, whose contents are revealed for the first time, states: “In different parts of the country units of the IRA (and Sinn Féin) are uneasy about the new left-wing policy of their leadership and about theviolent methods that are being adopted in the destruction of private property.

“Their uneasiness needs to be brought to the surface in some way with a consequent fragmentation of the organisation. It is suggested by the Department of Justice that the Government should promote an active political campaign in that regard.”

The memo indicates that Jack Lynch’s cabinet was discussing plans to split the IRA at least five months prior to the outbreak of major violence, and the death of civilians, in the North.

Within nine months the IRA had split into socialist Official and more traditional Provisional factions."



Former IRA member reveals ministers’ role in arms plot

I hear the northern landmass on Planet Loon is quite nice this time of year. What say you, Ambassador?

 

[Casually Red]

i thought it was more traditionally attributed to the (dublin) leadership of the ira running down the organisation's capacity to wage war and their adoption of socialist politics which were pushed to the fore (executive summary).

It wasn't that they'd adopted socialist politics . There were socialists in the provos . It's that they entered into recognition of partition and the state . Their politics were reformist and reactionary albeit couched in Marxist rhetoric , and therefore treasonous from a republican and revolutionary perspective . Blaming FF for their rejection by other republicans was simply part of their refusal to address the issue of their position and what it entailed.
When the Provo leadership did the very same years later, yet again there were splits over the very same issue . Difference was the Provos staggered their departures over a very drawn out period, leading to a series of splits . Having learned the lesson from the sticks mistake of going the whole hog too quickly . And like the sticks before them they blamed someone else on the refusal of other republicans to accept their new positions . This time round it was " the securocrats " . Remember them ?

 

[Idris2002]

It wasn't that they'd adopted socialist politics . There were socialists in the provos . It's that they entered into recognition of partition and the state . Their politics were reformist and reactionary albeit couched in Marxist rhetoric , and therefore treasonous from a republican and revolutionary perspective . Blaming FF for their rejection by other republicans was simply part of their refusal to address the issue of their position and what it entailed.
When the Provo leadership did the very same years later, yet again there were splits over the very same issue . Difference was the Provos staggered their departures over a very drawn out period, leading to a series of splits . Having learned the lesson from the sticks mistake of going the whole hog too quickly . And like the sticks before them they blamed someone else on the refusal of other republicans to accept their new positions . This time round it was " the securocrats " . Remember them ?

Their ability to write secret Department of Justice memos hints at a very keen refusal to address the issue. . . oh, wait.

What was it Mac Giolla said? "I was right too early, Adams was right too late, and O'Bradaigh will never be fucking right".

 

[Casually Red]

No, it's not:


"Former leading Official IRA member Bobby McKnight, 71, breaks his 40-year silence in a new book on the organisation published today.

Belfast man McKnight, who in 1969 was a member of the IRA command staff, states that along with another man he drove to Dublin Airport in September 1969. There he met then minister for finance Charles Haughey’s brother, Jock, and took delivery of several cases of weaponry, which filled his pickup truck, these were then transported to IRA members in Dublin.

In The Lost Revolution – The Story of the Official IRA and the Workers Party, written by Irish Examiner journalist Scott Millar and historian Brian Hanley, McKnight confirms his role in the arms plot which resulted in the major political crisis of the 1970 Arms Trial.

He is the first persondirectly involved in the transportation of arms shipments organised by government ministers to the IRA to confirm the existence of the plot.

McKnight confirms there were contacts between the IRA and Fianna Fáil representatives even prior to the outbreak of widescale violence in Northern Ireland in August 1969.

The book also reveals the extent of government fears about a resurgent IRA south of the border and plans to split the organisation along left/right lines, a strategy which aided the creation of the Provisional IRA.

A Department of Justice cabinet memo, dated March 18, 1969, whose contents are revealed for the first time, states: “In different parts of the country units of the IRA (and Sinn Féin) are uneasy about the new left-wing policy of their leadership and about theviolent methods that are being adopted in the destruction of private property.

“Their uneasiness needs to be brought to the surface in some way with a consequent fragmentation of the organisation. It is suggested by the Department of Justice that the Government should promote an active political campaign in that regard.”

The memo indicates that Jack Lynch’s cabinet was discussing plans to split the IRA at least five months prior to the outbreak of major violence, and the death of civilians, in the North.

Within nine months the IRA had split into socialist Official and more traditional Provisional factions."



Former IRA member reveals ministers’ role in arms plot

I hear the northern landmass on Planet Loon is quite nice this time of year. What say you, Ambassador?

I've no idea what fucking planet your living on . But here's a reality check . Your talking about the very same Fianna Fail that brought in section 31 and , under the oversight of Gerry Collins in particular, expelled en masse from Irish broadcast media anyone they even considered nationally minded , and jailed journalists for talking to the Provos. While simultaneously gifting RTE to the sticks and letting them be, in effect, the national media watchdog and censor. Even permitting them to push their own political agenda within the national broadcaster . Totally unhindered. Allowed to effectively colonise the national media. Even to train and select journalists, to coach them on what lines to take .
Your also talking about a republican movement that was already heading for a certain split , already fractured . And most certainly not over socialism but over recognition of partition and the state . Fundamental republican positions that guaranteed a split . That caused massive splits prior to 69 and long after, right to today .

If you take the time to look over who was who and doing what in those days you'll see that those who founded the Provos were to the forefront of these left wing activities the sticks claim were causing consternation . Mac Stiofain, OBradaigh, OConnail and co were to the forefront of..and often the masterminds behind..the mansion burnings , the fish ins, the sit ins and the housing action committees. Joe Clarke..who'd fought at Mount street bridge..was turfed out of the mansion house for disrupting a state commemoration on behalf of the Dublin housing action people . It's unhistorical bollocks.

Fianna Fail most certainly tried to get a foot inside the republican door but the fact is they failed. Miserably . Furthermore the fact is that it was the sticks who were on the same page as them politically, not the other way around . As their great revolutionary strategy was little more than the reformist bollocks Lemass had been pushing with some Stalinist rhetoric nailed on top.

ETA

And on top of all that loyalist and RUC mobs were running amok in nationalist districts in the north while the IRA leadership were telling people to sit on their hands . Even with some arguing ...chiefly Roy Johnson..that defending those areas was in itself an act of sectarianism . FF didn't need to add anything to those fissures . Not a single bit .

 

[Spymaster]

Run to the mods, then, you snivelling little bigot.

Why don't you fucking pack it in?

Just a few days ago you were complaining about another poster supposedly following you around and picking on you. You suggested that it was contributing to your deteriorating mental health.

So why do this?

 

[krtek a houby]

Why don't you fucking pack it in?

Just a few days ago you were complaining about another poster supposedly following you around and picking on you. You suggested that it was contributing to your deteriorating mental health.

So why do this?

Because he started it with this not so veiled comment

"It's just a stalky little cunt disrupti g yet another thread perusing an Internet grudge . Like a few others ."

And I childishly responded.

But in the interests of parity; fuck you, too.

 

[Casually Red]

Their ability to write secret Department of Justice memos hints at a very keen refusal to address the issue. . . oh, wait.

What was it Mac Giolla said? "I was right too early, Adams was right too late, and O'Bradaigh will never be fucking right".

That sticky bastard Mac Giolla was simply wrong, so was Adams, and every last one of OBradaighs predictions about both MacGiolla and Adams intentions and direction has been proven conclusively right . That's historical fact . Look at it..as statements go its just garbled idiocy.

They can write as many fucking memos as they want as well . The historical record ...even the very constitutions of both the IRA and Sinn fein ...contradict that conspiraloon theory . It's bollocks. If no fundamental republican positions had to be dumped then..very simply..there'd have been no IRA or Sinn fein conventions in order to do that and no walk outs . It was the dumping of those same positions that have caused EVERY republican split over the past 100 years . And has still been causing splits 40 years later that one. Just as it caused 4 separate splits prior to 69 .

 

[Casually Red]

Because he started it with this not so veiled comment

"It's just a stalky little cunt disrupti g yet another thread perusing an Internet grudge . Like a few others ."

And I childishly responded.

But in the interests of parity; fuck you, too.

Nobody was talking about you. Now fuck off and stop disrupting this thread .

 

[Spymaster]

Because he started it with this not so veiled comment

"It's just a stalky little cunt disrupti g yet another thread perusing an Internet grudge . Like a few others ."

And I childishly responded.

But in the interests of parity; fuck you, too.

You really don't do yourself any favours, fella.

 

[krtek a houby]

Nobody was talking about you. Now fuck off and stop disrupting this thread .

Yah, I'll leave it to you big, tough boys. With your little flags and your petty hatreds. Tiocfaidh ar la la, motherfuckers.

 

[Idris2002]

That sticky bastard Mac Giolla was simply wrong, so was Adams, and every last one of OBradaighs predictions about both MacGiolla and Adams intentions and direction has been proven conclusively right . That's historical fact . Look at it..as statements go its just garbled idiocy.

They can write as many fucking memos as they want as well . The historical record ...even the very constitutions of both the IRA and Sinn fein ...contradict that conspiraloon theory . It's bollocks. If no fundamental republican positions had to be dumped then..very simply..there'd have been no IRA or Sinn fein conventions in order to do that and no walk outs . It was the dumping of those same positions that have caused EVERY republican split over the past 100 years . And has still been causing splits 40 years later that one. Just as it caused 4 separate splits prior to 69 .

It was a Department of Justice cabinet memo quoted in the link I posted above. It wasn't the Sticks who wrote it. And it was a memo from 1969. It was part of the same historical record to which you appeal in your own post.

 

[krtek a houby]

You really don't do yourself any favours, fella.

Probably not but that prick is the Irish equivalent of the BNP. The homophobic, racist, misogynist bigot.

 

[Pickman's model]

It was a Department of Justice cabinet memo quoted in the link I posted above. It wasn't the Sticks who wrote it. And it was a memo from 1969. It was part of the same historical record to which you appeal in your own post.

while i appreciate this book came out in 2009 and therefore postdates moloney's 'secret history', i would have thought that moloney would have made more of the arms bit if he'd thought or suspected it was worth it. i won't deny that irish government involvement may have had some influence on the split, but i rather doubt it was the prime cause and motive force.

 

[Idris2002]

while i appreciate this book came out in 2009 and therefore postdates moloney's 'secret history', i would have thought that moloney would have made more of the arms bit if he'd thought or suspected it was worth it. i won't deny that irish government involvement may have had some influence on the split, but i rather doubt it was the prime cause and motive force.

Well, I went and checked my previous post, and what I said was that the split is usually attributed (in part) to FF's jiggery-pokery. Surely a seasoned pedant such as yourself appreciates the significance of that one?

Re: eoin_k's list above. The Official/Provie split is usually attributed (in part) to the machinations of Fianna Fail, isn't it?

 

[Pickman's model]

Well, I went and checked my previous post, and what I said was that the split is usually attributed (in part) to FF's jiggery-pokery. Surely a seasoned pedant such as yourself appreciates the significance of that one?

yeh. well my recollection, faulty tho it may be, is that it isn't usually.


Provisional Irish Republicans

although sometimes it's not perfect

 

[Idris2002]

yeh. well my recollection, faulty tho it may be, is that it isn't usually.

View attachment 87960
Provisional Irish Republicans

although sometimes it's not perfect

Looks like an interesting book, I'll have to look that one up. But in your pic it says "Fianna Fail members were accused of creating the conservative Provisionals to undercut the radical Republicans. In fact, two members of the Irish cabinet. . . were sacked". The problem is that Haughey and Blaney weren't sacked until the Arms crisis in 1970. The cabinet discussion cited in my link above occurred sometime around mid-1969 (in an atmosphere where it really did look like NI catholics were going to be wiped out, at least according to what my Mum said when I asked her about the period). The sacking of H and B in 1970 by no means contradicts any earlier claim of plotting to encourage a split (a split whose rough outline was already emerging anyway).

The other thing is that we still don't really know what Jack Lynch thought of it all. Was he initially sympathetic to the thought of arming the north, only to pull back when the implications became apparent? Or was he just riding the tiger of an issue that had the potential to split FF, never mind any other organization?

 

[Pickman's model]

Looks like an interesting book, I'll have to look that one up. But in your pic it says "Fianna Fail members were accused of creating the conservative Provisionals to undercut the radical Republicans. In fact, two members of the Irish cabinet. . . were sacked". The problem is that Haughey and Blaney weren't sacked until the Arms crisis in 1970. The cabinet discussion cited in my link above occurred sometime around mid-1969 (in an atmosphere where it really did look like NI catholics were going to be wiped out, at least according to what my Mum said when I asked her about the period). The sacking of H and B in 1970 by no means contradicts any earlier claim of plotting to encourage a split (a split whose rough outline was already emerging anyway).

The other thing is that we still don't really know what Jack Lynch thought of it all. Was he initially sympathetic to the thought of arming the north, only to pull back when the implications became apparent? Or was he just riding the tiger of an issue that had the potential to split FF, never mind any other organization?

my quote more to substantiate your point about ff involvement than anything else. somewhere i've a book about ff and the 'ra i've meant to read for a while, looks about the time to take it from the shelf.

 

[Casually Red]

It was a Department of Justice cabinet memo quoted in the link I posted above. It wasn't the Sticks who wrote it. And it was a memo from 1969. It was part of the same historical record to which you appeal in your own post.

Right. And it's a memo from the Justice ministry. Headed up by none other than Miceal O Morain. The guy who actually squealed on the Arms plot. The guy who personally spiked it . So the sticks claim is the guy who personally made sure no arms got into the country , and blew the whole plot, and personally testified against the ringleaders, is the very same guy who ensured the Provos were formed by Fianna Fail because Fianna Fail wanted to arm them . Despite them not even existing at the time . It's bollocks .
Furthermore it's a memo from a chronic alcoholic who was pretty shit at his job and was rarely fit to go to work . Anyone with even a passing knowledge of republicanism in 1969 would have been fully aware that the decision to recognise the various parliaments was on the cards later that year . And that something so fundamental was absolutely certain to cause a split . It's a FF minister attempting to take credit for something he ...and everyone else ..knew was certain to happen , but had absolutely nothing to do with .

Regardless . The republican movement was very badly fractured prior to 1969 over utterly fundamental positions . The historical record ..which can be gleaned from any number of books which cover the 62 to 69 period ..reflects who was actively involved in these activities the minister claims was causing consternation . And those who took the decision to found the Provos were most certainly to the forefront of them . And indeed had been urging that type of activity all along ...it was in that same period the documents that comprised the basis of the later Eire Nua strategy were formulated within the movement . The issues they split over were key issues , first and foremost formal recognition of partitionist parliaments..and indeed Westminster . Nothing to do with socialism .

There was certainly deep consternation at the influence various socialist outfits had with then leadership. Primarily...first and last...because their analysis was that the north could be reformed from within..and that class consciousness would then magically sprout. Which was bollocks . And their analysis that the national struggle was a bourgeois diversion, taking seats in the 3 parliaments, armed struggle defunct , defending nationalist areas from pogroms sectarian etc . All that sort of stuff . Stuff that many republicans viewed as reformist and totally counter revolutionary . Issues peoples comrades had been executed or starved to death over rather than accept . Issues that were certain to cause a split .

The 1970 arms trial centred around an aborted attempt to import arms..that Fianna Fail themselves aborted . That the justice minister spiked the second he became aware of it . They didn't give anyone guns . They had no leverage whatsoever to split anyone. It was Goulding himself who would have taken delivery .